SC

It’s Time To Take Down The Confederate Flag

“THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT THIS SYMBOL WORTH FIGHTING FOR …” || By FITSNEWS ||  It’s been barely twenty-four hours since a troubled 21-year-old white kid with Confederate flag license plates murdered nine black parishioners – including S.C. Senator Clementa Pinckney – at the historic Mother Emanuel AME church in downtown Charleston,…

“THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT THIS SYMBOL WORTH FIGHTING FOR …”

|| By FITSNEWS ||  It’s been barely twenty-four hours since a troubled 21-year-old white kid with Confederate flag license plates murdered nine black parishioners – including S.C. Senator Clementa Pinckney – at the historic Mother Emanuel AME church in downtown Charleston, S.C.  In other words everything you’ve read about this tragedy – beyond the original news coverage of the incident and the identification and capture of its alleged perpetrator – is knee-jerk commentary.

As the initial shock, grief and anger subsides – and as we become better able to make sense of the information that’s out there – the hope is that facts will ultimately give way to truth.  And truth will ultimately give way to wisdom.  And wisdom will ultimately yield a better world.

Of course that’s wishful thinking – as we’ve seen already.  Before the blood on the floor at Mother Emanuel had even dried, U.S. president Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, the odds-on favorite to succeed him in the Oval Office, were nakedly politicizing the tragedy in an effort to build momentum for another anti-Second Amendment crusade.

Common courtesy (and common sense) be damned …

Left and right, all sorts of agendas are being advanced – and will be advanced – in the aftermath of this shooting.  Facts will be twisted, generalizations will be made, motives will be presumed (and impugned) and our polarized culture will pull at the threads from both ends in an effort to unravel anything resembling resolution.

None of the dissonance will bring back the dead – nor will it soothe those who mourn them.  Nor is the cacophonous clamor of talking heads and click-bait web commentary likely to produce the sort of better-worldly wisdom mentioned above.

But through the thick fog created by the “Holy City Massacre” we believe there is truth to be found – and when we think we’ve stumbled upon it, we will say so.

For example, we believe the premeditated carnage – whatever delusional rationalization precipitated it – affirms our support for the expansion of capital punishment (an issue which, ironically, was being debated on this site earlier this week).  We also believe – contrary to Obama and Clinton – it affirms our support for the Second Amendment.  Furthermore, we believe it should spark a serious discussion about mental illness – one this website has been inexcusably slack in advancing.  And yes, it should probably challenge (to some extent) this website’s oft-stated support for the immediate decriminalization of all drugs.

But this post isn’t about the death penalty, gun rights, mental health or drug abuse … or even the despicable racism that appears to have contributed mightily to this tragedy.  It’s about a symbol that, rightly or wrongly, has come to be viewed as racist.

And as the fog lifts from the “Holy City Massacre,” we need to see that symbol no more.  We need to see an empty flag post on the north lawn of the S.C. State House … we need to see the Confederate flag removed from the grounds of our state’s capital. 

To be clear: This website has never supported – or opposed – the flag.  Because we’ve never really cared about it (even when it was the focal point of the state’s political debate).

“We believe symbols like the Confederate flag – or any other flag – don’t matter because they can easily be used by anybody to advance anything … just like political labels,” we wrote not long ago.

We still believe that to be the case.  Which is why – up until now – we’ve never called for it to be taken down.

“State leaders can leave it, move it, burn it or use it as a bath towel for all we care,” we wrote back in 2011.

Exactly.  Which is why we’ve reiterated this view every time the issue has reared its largely irrelevant head.

But if the question is one of our indifference versus the legitimate angst of others – then this issue should be a no-brainer.  Irrespective of who’s right or wrong from a historical standpoint, why keep something that’s needlessly offending people?  Whether the flag stands for “heritage” or “hate” – or neither or both – it is being perceived as hateful.  And in this case, there is no compelling rationalization to counter this perception.

In other words, there’s nothing about the flag worth fighting for.

If we truly believe it to be a non-issue, then we should have no issue with it coming down.  And we don’t.

In 2009, we polled this issue 40 and found that percent of FITS readers wanted the flag to stay where it is.  Meanwhile 34 percent wanted it back on top of the State House and 26 percent wanted it off the grounds completely and placed in a museum.  Last fall we polled a much broader sample of readers and found that 38 percent supported the flag’s current location, 34 percent wanted it moved to a museum and 28 percent wanted it raised from the dome again.

What will our readers say this time?  Who knows … but in our view, it’s time for the flag to go.

Oh, and for the record we don’t believe it should be placed in a government museum – because we don’t believe museums are core functions of government.  Lawmakers should simply pass a measure removing the banner from its current location on the State House grounds and be done with it.

***

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321 comments

Torch June 19, 2015 at 9:51 am

Take it down.

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sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 9:58 am

As a native West by God Virginian whose home state told the Confederacy to kiss our hillbilly asses (especially Virginia {the other half of a mountain of conceit between that valley of humility {i.e., North Carolina} – the other half being the Great State of South Carolina), the Confederate flag has no emotional or sentimental meaning to me.
As an “outsider” the only thing it represents is people who identify it with the romance of “The Lost Cause” as far as I’m concerned.
Since the German soldiers in WWII also fought bravely for their “cause” no one should have a case of hemorrhoids if they flew the Nazi flag in Berlin.

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FastEddy23 June 19, 2015 at 10:11 am

I have family ties to Parkersburg, my self, and have considerable sympathy with WV / Ohio River thinking on that.

GD confederate terrorists burned Parkersburg to the ground, mostly cause it was a key station on the Underground Railroad. (Open pit oil wells made it pretty easy to do, too.)

That being said I do respect and understand loyalty … Loyalty is love, love of the bright shining ideals of the past and hope for a brighter future.

It would in my opinion be a terrible shame to remove that bright shining symbol from view.

Is the purpose and art and symbolism of the Confederate Flag taught in South Carolina schools? Or are the PC poobahs strangling SC history classes too?

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sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 10:58 am

Yep, a lot of the Appalachian region was split even if the state succeeded from the union and joined the Confederacy.
Southwest Virginia, eastern Tennessee and eastern Kentucky come to mind and were all seriously split and many were pro Union
PLUS………………
Northern Greenville was definitely pro-union (that’s how “Dark Corner” where there are now $million+ homes and one bitching golf course is situated got it’s name).
But a lot around the upstate choose to deny the truth and get all misty eyed about “their heritage” when in all probability great-great-great “Pepaw” was a Union supporter if he lived in the Northwest part of the upstate!!!!!

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:36 am

Horry was not solid Confederate, either, early on. By the time of Sherman’s advance, though, it became a matter of defending hearth and home. By that time, especially if you were in his direct path, being “for” the union was like being a big fan of a hurricane, and showing that by smiling at it real big when it blows you away.

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sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 4:45 pm

I could see that………
Plus you remember the old Civil War saying about it being a “Rich Man’s war and a Poor Man’s fight”????
That wouldn’t be the first time that happened……………..and sadly probably won’t be the last time either…………………

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:19 am

Comment deleted.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:18 am

Comment deleted.

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tomstickler June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am

Buzzman: is he the real Sparklecity we used to know and love, or is he just another feckless troll?

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The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 4:42 am

I posted that I know who he is now, because he posted the exact same message on another site under his real name. We have many friends in common. I deleted the comment myself, because I didn’t want to out him. btw, I never did mention his real name.

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The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 4:45 am

I agree with much of what he says. On here and on that other site. I invite him to friend me, if he so chooses.

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Quietus June 19, 2015 at 10:01 am

Et tu, Brute?

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JudithTWalker June 19, 2015 at 10:46 am Reply
TroubleBaby June 19, 2015 at 10:52 am

“You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it’s an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.” – Rahm Emanuel

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 10:59 am

Ditto. This is NOT the time to bring up the flag issue (again).

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TroubleBaby June 19, 2015 at 11:07 am

The Left is good at using these horrible situations to ram their agenda through.

Now “racism”, “gun control”, the flag…all dominate the talking points.

The issue of mental illness and commonality of Big Pharma anti-depressant use in all these mass shootings never even reaches the level of discussion in most circles.

It’s sad.

I don’t know your age, but back when I was a nerdy kid playing “Dungeons & Dragon’s” in the late 70’s/early 80’s some wacko kid killed himself and someone else citing D&D as an influence.

Another wacko killed himself and others using Black Sabbath songs as his inspiration at the same time.

Back then, the big push in society was to ban “D&D”, tamp down Black Sabbath, etc. et al

Not ONCE did common sense prevail and someone say, “You know, there’s some fucked up people in the world that will justify their mentally ill actions with just about anything in society.”

Instead, it’s time to “ban” everything and hope the mentally ill fix themselves…..society is at times almost as crazy as the perpetrators of these heinous acts.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:17 am

Yes! And btw, how would gun control have helped this situation? The killer had no felony records or mental illness record and he was of legal age.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:18 am

If the father had had to purchase a $1,200 insurance policy at the time, maybe, just maybe, he’d have decided against it.

Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:23 am

Isn’t it illegal to bring gun into a church?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:34 am

It’s illegal to smoke a joint and drive a car. Ever see anyone smoke a joint in their car in Five Points? I have.

Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:42 am

Thank you for making my point! Criminals do not obey the law.

The Colonel June 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm

in South Carolina yes it is illegal to bring a gun into church

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:08 pm

Are you struggling with “…shall not be infringed…”?

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 4:10 pm

Where is the “well-regulated militia”, though, Colonel, if errbody and his dog has a gun?

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 4:42 pm

like it or not my friend you were in it if you’re between 15 and 50 and can carry a weapon

The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 4:33 am

Understood. But how does the “well-regulated malitia” square TODAY with everybody having a gun. Where is the regulation? I think I’ve asked it a half-dozen ways now, at least, and you keep deflecting or ignoring the question. The amendment seem predicated on having a well-regulated militia. Whiter the regulation, in the here and now?

The Colonel June 20, 2015 at 7:49 am

The original wording of the second amendment went something like this:
“A well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free State”

Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist 28 that “if the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense,” a right which he declared to be “paramount.” it’s not about hunting or even personal defense from a thug – it’s about the whole of the make citizenry (the militia) being able to defend itself from the state.

The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 1:53 pm

AGAIN, where in the fucking hell is the “well-regulated” part of it?

The Colonel June 20, 2015 at 2:48 pm

It was expected that citizen soldiers (the militia) would continue to train as they did in that period (well regulated), however it is two separate ideas: In order to have a militia that could defend itself, you first had to have free access to firearms. That was not the case in Europe where only the Army had access to weapons. The framers feared standing armies more than anything else because that wad how despots had always enforced their despotic acts.

If you really want to get at the heart of the matter, we should be meeting every Saturday in front of the library at USC to practice drilling. (The Cooper Library grounds was once the local drill grounds) you were required to provide. “… a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a cartridge box with 24 bullets, and a knapsack….”

Google the “militia acts of 1792”

The Colonel June 20, 2015 at 3:40 pm

Not to get all “tinfoil hattish”, but one of the first things that happens when a despot seizes power is that private ownership of firearms is curtailed.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves against their ethnic-cleansing government, were arrested and exterminated.

In 1929, the former Soviet Union established gun control as a means of controlling the “more difficult” of their citizens. From 1929 to the death of Stalin, 40 million Soviets met an untimely end at the hand of various governmental agencies as they were arrested and exterminated.

After the rise of the Nazi’s, Germany established their version of gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves against the “Brown Shirts”, were arrested and exterminated. Interestingly, the Brown Shirts were eventually targeted for extermination themselves following their blind acts of allegiance to Hitler. Any American military and police would be wise to grasp the historical significance of the Brown Shirts’ fate.

After Communist China established gun control in 1935, an estimated 50 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves against their fascist leaders, were arrested and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayans, unable to defend themselves against their ruthless dictatorship, were arrested and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves from their dictatorial government, were arrested and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million of the “educated” people, unable to defend themselves against their fascist government, were arrested and exterminated.

In 1994, Rwanda disarmed the Tutsi people and being unable to defend themselves from their totalitarian government, nearly one million were summarily executed.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:36 am

Actually he was under a felony drug investigation and as such was prohibited from making the purchase.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:40 am

Thanks for that info. Didn’t know that. Probably should try and get some info on other sites besides FITS – :)

Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:41 am

Ah. Maybe he purchased the gun before the felony drug investigation?

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:49 am

The drug bust came February, his 21st birthday wasn’t until April.

Mom June 19, 2015 at 12:34 pm

Okay. Then he illegally obtained a gun. Damn – If criminals would just obey the law!

CorruptionInColumbia June 19, 2015 at 12:53 pm

That’s why we need MOAR laws. If we just had enough laws, sooner or late the criminals might obey one.

-sarcasm

yumiyumiyumi June 21, 2015 at 12:29 pm

gun control would have helped in this situation because it would have prevented the shooter from owning said gun. you idiot.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:05 am

A saw old Mark Sanford on TV last night and this morning saying “I have friends who say it’s part of their heritage and my great great grandfather fought for the cause” – then let’s have a compromise. I had family that fought in the Civil War too. Can we have adjacent to the memorial and the flag another memorial for my relatives, say maybe fly the regimental flags of the units of Sherman’s Army that crossed into Columbia, maybe with an eternal flame to commemorate when we torched the place? I would be cool with that. Else, take it down.

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CorruptionInColumbia June 19, 2015 at 10:11 am

Don’t they already fly the Union flag in far more places and always above the Confederate flag?

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:56 am

So what? The Union flag, I assume you mean the American flag? It’s as annoying to me as people who keep those stupid Clemson flags on their car all year long, even after their tattered and faded. I remember as a northern raised young man standing on the patio at Gambrell Hall and looking over and seeing that Stars and Bars flying thinking to myself – at what point do you people let go of the past and move on.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:15 am

With this you demonstrate your innate trollishness. You’re useless as teats on a boar hog, when it comes to contributing anything worth a damn to this site. Not far behind GT and pogo-flipper in that.

OOPS! Thought you were Squishy. Sorry.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:22 am

No worries.

nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:11 am

How do you feel about Nazi memorials all over Europe or even just Germany?

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Squishy123 June 19, 2015 at 10:42 am

Was it part of history? Then I’m fine with it. This whole candy-ass society today where nobody can have their feelings hurt, everybody gets a trophy, no keeping score, let’s sit in a circle so there’s no first or last member, etc… Fucking pathetic. Is there any surprise why other countries are catching up and passing the US as a world leader?

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:48 am

It’s not about hurt feelings. It’s about when you lose, you should lose and move on and not invent a noble history based on ancestors being traitors to the United States of America.
Reconstruction should have come down a hell of a lot harder than it did and lasted a hell of a lot longer. The country would be better off if the South had really learned its lesson.

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Waaaaaaaahhhhhh! June 19, 2015 at 11:00 am

Christ the self hate is strong with you. Move the hell out of SC if it’s such a racist, traitorous place.

I’m sure you’ll be much happier. It’s tiring bitching all the time without making moves to resolve your unhappiness.

nitrat June 19, 2015 at 11:17 am

I am a native and you are a troll.
A native who loves their state wants it to reach its maximum potential not to wallow in the excrement of a disgraceful, traitorous past.

Waaaaaaaahhhhhhh! June 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm

“A native who loves their state wants it to reach its maximum potential not to wallow in the excrement of a disgraceful, traitorous past.”

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? 50% of SC doesn’t feel the same way about the flag. So you either settle in and take SC for its warts & good things, or remain miserable.

You’re not going to chance the minds of enough to make even the slightest difference over a topic that really doesn’t mean much in the big picture anyway.

That old flag flying on the stategrounds has virtually nothing to do with present day quality of life in SC for 99% of its inhabitants.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:30 pm

That old flag has everything to do with the present day quality of life. Oppression.

Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh! June 19, 2015 at 5:43 pm

oh bs,don’t be hyperbolic

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 5:45 pm

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh right back atcha!

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:30 pm

That old flag has everything to do with the present day quality of life. Oppression.

Terry June 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm

Fortunately for the future of SC that 50% is old and dying. Soon they will be an unremarkable note in history. Forgotten relics of a bygone era, like the flag they love. Maybe when enough of them pass on, we can finally fold up that “Old” flag, stick it in their coffins with them and bury it forever. Dum spiro spero.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm

As someone who’s family paid to defeat that flag with their sons lives, I say take it down now and let that 50% go to their graves understanding the meaning of defeat. But that’s just me.

Jackie Chiles June 19, 2015 at 2:35 pm

Your sons fought in the Civil War? Dayum you’re old.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 5:02 pm

The sons of my ancestors. I’m not that old – though some days I feel like it.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm

As someone who’s family paid to defeat that flag with their sons lives, I say take it down now and let that 50% go to their graves understanding the meaning of defeat. But that’s just me.

Terry June 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm

Fortunately for the future of SC that 50% is old and dying. Soon they will be an unremarkable note in history. Forgotten relics of a bygone era, like the flag they love. Maybe when enough of them pass on, we can finally fold up that “Old” flag, stick it in their coffins with them and bury it forever. Dum spiro spero.

Waaaaaaaahhhhhhh! June 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm

“A native who loves their state wants it to reach its maximum potential not to wallow in the excrement of a disgraceful, traitorous past.”

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? 50% of SC doesn’t feel the same way about the flag. So you either settle in and take SC for its warts & good things, or remain miserable.

You’re not going to chance the minds of enough to make even the slightest difference over a topic that really doesn’t mean much in the big picture anyway.

That old flag flying on the stategrounds has virtually nothing to do with present day quality of life in SC for 99% of its inhabitants.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:43 am

My God in Heaven you are a moron.

The evils of Reconstruction is one of the reasons racism sound up being so entrenched for as long as it was. You really need to try reading about what went on rather than just blabbing some uberliberal south hating position you picked up some where. Lincoln wanted nothing like what eventually happened.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:28 pm

No history buff, but after the civil war, blacks wanted to put it behind them. A lot of angry whites who had lost money, did not want to put the war behind them. Fast forward, tables turned. Blacks no longer were interested in putting the past behind them and were angry with how they were treated, rightfully so.

If I recall correctly, the slave owners who sold their own people, were black. That in no way pardons the brutal treatment they received in America.

Horrible judgment, treatment and greed led to one of the worst wars we ever had. We were fighting our own.

There is plenty of blame to be passed. Plenty of stones to cast. We all live in glass houses.

Let us write history today, put prejudice behind us. Everyone work together. We are all in the same country. We are all on the same side. We all bleed red.

We are the United States of America.

sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 10:48 am

Good point – see my post below

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:48 am

I did…after I posted mine. Thanks.

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AA History Monument June 19, 2015 at 10:13 am

Since the African American History monument was part of the same compromise that placed the flag where it is now, I’m sure you are OK with taking sledge hammers or dynamite to it. Correct?

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:53 am

Take to the museum along with the flag. Happy?

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AA History Monument June 19, 2015 at 11:47 am

No. The agreement that NAACP and the Black Caucus agreed to was remove the flags from the dome and the legislative chambers, as soon as the AA History Monument was completed they reneged on their part of the bargin and started this boycott business. If they want the flag of the War Memorial then the AA History monument needs to be destroyed.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:11 pm

No, we take them both to a museum, preferably on the USC campus. You seem to have some real issue with the African American community. Do you need directions to Calhoun Street?

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm

I see the article states no support for a museum, due to costs. I wonder how much it costs to keep that flag flying up and down. We may never know, I can’t remember when it was down.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:34 pm

FITS has no support for a museum because of costs. I bet we can fix that. Here, see if these folks will take it –

South Carolina Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum
301 Gervais ST
Columbia, SC 29201

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:44 pm

Anything is better than flying it high. Let that museum have it.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm

I see the article states no support for a museum, due to costs. I wonder how much it costs to keep that flag flying up and down. We may never know, I can’t remember when it was down.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:11 pm

No, we take them both to a museum, preferably on the USC campus. You seem to have some real issue with the African American community. Do you need directions to Calhoun Street?

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:11 am

Why should such a trade-off be necesarry? This isn’t “Let’s Make a Deal.” Blacks are not a group of rebellious states that went to war against the nation.

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AA History Monument June 19, 2015 at 11:19 am

The compromise that put the flag at the Confederate Soldiers Memorial also created the African American History Monument. If the flag is removed, the African American History Monument should be removed as well. Otherwise put it back on the dome and back in the legislative chambers.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:21 am

I think someone rightly suggested, keep the memorial, remove the flag.

sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 10:17 am

As soon as I saw some reporter put a microphone in front that duty shirking SOB’s face last night I pushed the “alt. channel” button on my remote in less than 3 microseconds.
I don’t give a rats ass what that duty shirking SOB has to say about anything
I can’t stand to see that turd’s face or hear his voice.
Fuck a bunch of Mark Sanfraud is what I say…………………..

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:27 am

He was disgracefully inarticulate and contributed nothing and I have seen him 2-3 times.
This morning I saw him grinning and shucking and jiving with someone behind a broadcasting reporter on that corner down from Emanuel.
Obviously, the maggot, like Nikki, is going to stay in Charleston and milk this for all it’s worth. But, they may run if they keep getting asked about the flag.

Washington Post had a piece in their Reliable Sources section about Sanford and Chapur partying all over DC again this week. The SC press seems to be too stupid to have picked up on it.

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sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 10:46 am

Maybe he was drunk or OD’ed on his psychosis meds……….
Seriously, I have absolutely no use for that duty shirking SOB.
There are some folks that “love to “hate” a celebrity (Howard Cosell comes to my “old school” mind) and will watch him/her just for that reason and I get that.
That duty shirking lying, cheating SOB Sanfraud ain’t in that category as far as I’m concerned. I have absolutely no use for his sorry ass so as soon as I see/hear him I hit the “change” button instantly.
If I was in the news business I wouldn’t cover his sorry ass either.
The less that turd is seen/heard/interviewed the better as far as I’m concerned.

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:51 am

He should not be covered. But, he appears to be camped out at the corner with the TV cameras. If one of the reporters asked about the Chapur story, he might turn tail. But, I doubt it.

sparklecity June 19, 2015 at 11:13 am

Like I posted that “love to hate’ thing…….
I get it – honestly I do
But as far as I’m personally concerned that turd ain’t in that category and I ain’t paying any attention to anything that duty shirking SOB has to say
But that’s just me………….

Mom June 19, 2015 at 10:07 am

@FITS – Very interesting you are questioning your stand on drug legalization. It is young men like Dylann Roof who will partake in drugs trying to self medicate for an underlying mental condition. Like you, I am a libertarian who wants less government control. However, self-administered drugs had potential do cause more damage than good.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:09 am

Mom – I suspect there is no connection between any drugs and Dylann’s actions. I suspect his switch flipped from mental illness, not some pills. Not saying drugs are great, but I doubt they caused him to do what he did The more we find out about him, it appears he was a bright, but introverted and disturbed young man. I still wonder if he was chatting with some hate group that egged him on.

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:13 am

I suspect his switch flipped from growing up in Lexington County….which actually may be the same thing as mental illness.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am

Who knows. Son of Sam’s switch was a talking dog. Oddly, the other switch seems to be – can’t get laid. Maybe what we need is a way to get these kids laid? Just a thought.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:30 am

“Son of Sam’s switch was a talking dog.” Did they debate ridding the state of dogs?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:33 am

I don’t think we’re talking of ridding the state of Lexington.

Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:46 am

You are talking about ridding the state of the rebel flag. Because that is what the killer’s switch was. Right?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:09 pm

No, what I was saying is that given this was clearly a hate crime against African Americans – and we are looking for a point of healing – why not take down the dang flag as a symbol of coming together and healing.

Squishy123 June 19, 2015 at 2:13 pm

Has there ever been a hate crime charge against a black person? It seems that everytime they beat or kill a white person, the white person just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time according to the judicial system.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 2:17 pm

Ya know Squishy – I don’t know. Serial killers yeah – like that guy in Atlanta in the late 70s. I remember once as a young reporter in a former life, a black guy in the woods killed a white guy. Black guy was cutting firewood and carried a .22 for snakes. White guy was gonna kick his ass just for being, and the black guy held up the .22. White guy grabbed the wrong end and pulled the gun toward himself. Round up through the chin, exited out the top of his head. They ruled that one a suicide because the white guy was dumb enough to kill himself being stupid. They had to hold the black guy in jail for a week though to let the crackers settle down.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 3:26 pm

That black criminal that shot those two cops in the head the other month in NYC and told everyone he did it because of Michael Brown….was…wait for it…NOT CHARGED WITH A HATE CRIME.

Just murder.

There’s definitely a double standard.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:09 pm

No, what I was saying is that given this was clearly a hate crime against African Americans – and we are looking for a point of healing – why not take down the dang flag as a symbol of coming together and healing.

SCBlueWoman June 19, 2015 at 11:29 am

Racism isn’t a mental illness. It’s alive and well as evidenced by Mr. Roof.

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Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 11:32 am

How bad do you want this to be about race? What if comes out he was mentally ill, what then? Will you ignore that part and continue to talk about how racist SC is?

SCBlueWoman June 19, 2015 at 11:40 am

I didn’t single out SC. It is about race, or have you failed to read what Mr Roof confessed?

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 11:43 am

Did you think that racism is what made him decide to sit in a black church for an hour and then gun everyone down or do you think it was mental illness?

Terry June 19, 2015 at 11:49 am

That’s and easy question. Racism. When you plan to kill black people, tell people you are going to kill black people, and then you kill black people, I think we can safely assume you are a racist.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 11:57 am

“That’s and easy question. Racism. ”

On the surface ,you might think so.

The problem is this, there are huge number of “racist” people out there.

So why is it, this particular racist decided to act out on his hatred and commit a crime(murder), versus all the others that haven’t done so?

What’s the missing element?

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 11:57 am

“That’s and easy question. Racism. ”

On the surface ,you might think so.

The problem is this, there are huge number of “racist” people out there.

So why is it, this particular racist decided to act out on his hatred and commit a crime(murder), versus all the others that haven’t done so?

What’s the missing element?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm

or both

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 12:08 pm

So would it have been any less heinous if he went into a white church and committed the same act?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:30 pm

It would be equal.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm

Thank you for being honest!

…and that is my point…all these rants about racism actually detract from the “crime” itself.

Hating someone or something, is not a crime. Nor does it make the crime worse or better.

More importantly, it’s important to understand the root cause of crime…rather than politicize it.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm

Thank you for being honest!

…and that is my point…all these rants about racism actually detract from the “crime” itself.

Hating someone or something, is not a crime. Nor does it make the crime worse or better.

More importantly, it’s important to understand the root cause of crime…rather than politicize it.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:35 pm

Playing – the kids already said he committed the crime to generate a race war. I think we can now safely use the world race in conjunction with the crime.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 12:39 pm

I never said you can’t used the word “race” in conjunction with a crime. Don’t put words in my mouth.

“Mentally Ill” is most likely the reason for his crime, regardless of his racism.

We can see this because we all know that there’s racism all over the place(and everywhere, not just SC) and yet there are very few actual murders over it in terms of percentage.

In fact, the biggest perpetrators of violence on blacks in America, is blacks.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:49 pm

Not arguing that point. Accept mass killings are usually not black on black. Those tend to be more personalized.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:35 pm

Playing – the kids already said he committed the crime to generate a race war. I think we can now safely use the world race in conjunction with the crime.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:30 pm

It would be equal.

Playing Old Maid June 19, 2015 at 12:08 pm

So would it have been any less heinous if he went into a white church and committed the same act?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm

or both

Mom June 19, 2015 at 10:14 am

True. We are making assumptions, at this point, as to why this young man’s heinous actions. Drugs, mental illness, possession of the devil. We don’t know the facts yet. However, if we think removing the confederate flag will help prevent future tragedies, we should also look at drug accessibility and mental illness care.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:52 am

The flag issue is really all about the symbol it serves for others. The African Americans see it as supporting the institution of slavery – the white see it as a way of holding on to some symbol that they’re still totally in control. It’s not about states rights – it’s about saying – OK we’re desegregated – but FU.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 10:57 am

Maybe so, maybe not. But right now, South Carolina is in the national spotlight. It is not a time to have another kerfuffle over the flag.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:59 am

No, it is. It was a hate crime against a revered symbol to African American Christians, and to their heritage in this State. I saw Nikki saying she talks to CEOs all the time about relocating to SC and they never mention it. Really? How many CEOs does she never get to speak to because of that stupid flag.

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:08 am

It is unavoidable. Haley and Sanford trying to dodge it, and everyone being in denial about it, changes nothing. It’s an issue. It will be an issue in the primaries. It may end up being an issue in the general.

nitrat June 19, 2015 at 11:12 am

And, it should be an issue for all the presidential candidates coming through…so we can see if they can do better than John McCain.

Or is that what you mean? Because state legislators need to HAVE to take a stand, too and not get away with the Haley/Sanford waffling.

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:07 am

Exactly. The only reason it was ever put atop the dome. And since being taken down, the only reason it is as prominent as it is.

well-i-am into it June 19, 2015 at 10:25 am

Interesting to see so many issues converge into this despicable act. Race, gun violence, prescription drug abuse, street exchange of prescription drugs, second amendment, confederate flag, death penalty, mental health, etc. All are very valid connections and goes on to show that we as a society have not solved any one of these issue that confront us and need our immediate attention. But it was incredible for me to watch Sen. Larry Grooms to say on national media (Fox) that the level of anger against politicians has reached new heights this year in this state, implying that this could be somehow linked to that anger. That was so opportunistic and probably the most disgusting spin I have heard from a politician about ANY tragedy. Lets focus on the victims and the legal course. If we work to gain the respect of the victims’ families for how we all treat this tragedy and talk about it, then we have done our duty as a society in being with the families through this.

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Crooner June 19, 2015 at 11:08 am

Give Grooms a break: he’s simply not very smart.

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 11:09 am

I agree with the ‘not very smart’ part.

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Still Searching for Truth June 19, 2015 at 12:01 pm

Grooms intelligence aside, there is a faction that supports the ideal that Sen. Pinckney was targeted by his support for the policy body camera legislation. An idea is being presented that this young man was upset that police brutality against minorities should be allowed and not monitored.

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Still Searching for Truth June 19, 2015 at 12:01 pm

Grooms intelligence aside, there is a faction that supports the ideal that Sen. Pinckney was targeted by his support for the policy body camera legislation. An idea is being presented that this young man was upset that police brutality against minorities should be allowed and not monitored.

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Dothraki Pride June 19, 2015 at 10:29 am

Fly it in D.C. as a trophy of war.

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FastEddy23 June 19, 2015 at 10:30 am

Yeah! … Fly it upside down! … Oh, wait …

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:09 am

It was done on purpose – they figured that way either they’d never lose or every time they put it up it could be considered upside down and a call for help!!

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:28 am

Interestingly enough, the flag we’re currently flying was not a flag Soldiers from South Carolina would have normally marched under. The square battle flag is generally known as “the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia”. South Carolina regiment had their own flags, many utilizing the gorget of the Fort Moltrie flag. Big Red is an example of that style of flag. The Confederacy changed “official flags” multiple times during the war.

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FastEddy23 June 24, 2015 at 11:17 am

… and it was under that N. Virginia flag that the rebels burned Parkersburg, West Virginia to the ground … Parkersburg being a notorious station on the underground railroad.

“… South Carolina regiment had their own flags, many utilizing the gorget of the Fort Moltrie flag. …”

So it really does not matter, historically, whether that flag is flown in SC or not.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:08 am

Like +++++++++

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 11:15 am

The appropriate use for that flag is a rug to wipe your dirty shoes on.

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idiotwind June 19, 2015 at 10:29 am

maybe there is a middle ground between A) taking your hunting rifle away, and B) supplying every 21 year old schizophrenic with a 45.

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Well Regulated Militias June 19, 2015 at 10:31 am

That’s not how I read the second amendment! We need to put a gun in every man, woman, and child’s hands or we aren’t free!

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:04 am

Haha! Right. I see what you did there.

No way to regulate it, if everybody has a gun. So the amendment itself contains language that contradicts the way some interpret it.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:27 am

There’s no evidence that the killer was schizophrenic.

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:32 am

Looks like he illegally purchased the weapon himself.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:34 am

I thought I read his father purchased it for him.

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Yes... June 19, 2015 at 11:34 am

That did come out initially….but the “facts” are ever changing…

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:35 am

Coming pout today is news that the family was estranged and that they had given him money for his birthday. The father is a lawyer.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 11:36 am

I read that the Grandfather is a lawyer. Are you sure the father is also a lawyer?

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:37 am

Grandfather, sorry.

Superfly June 19, 2015 at 10:37 am

Basically all we’re waiting for, for many improvements in South Carolina, in this case removing the current version of a Confederate Flag on the Statehouse Grounds is for people like John Courson to die, or find themselves some other gubment job as result of their position of power, i.e., Glenn McConnell. Those two are the primary bastards that insisted on placing the flag in everyone’s face in front of Main St in Columbia, SC. Courson, resign, don’t run again, or die already. If you really love South Carolina, you will do one of those three things.

Poor old Kay Patterson agreed with the compromise of placing a different Confederate Flag at the Soldiers Monument, just to get the flag off the dome, and off the wall in the House and Senate Chambers. Until removed from inside the wall hanging above the Speaker’s Desk and the Senate Presiding Officer’s Desk, members of the Black Caucus would not enter when the Pledge of Allegiance was recited, due to being forced to stand and recite the Pledge while staring at the Confederate Flag simultaneously. I remember when I first went to work in the SC Senate, as a Page in the late 80’s, I laughed at the site of the Confederate Flag inside the Senate Chamber. I thought, “What the fuck are these guys thinking, that they’re still fighting the Civil War?” L later learned why the Black Caucus all entered *after* the Pledge was recited every day, and I don’t blame them at all, then or now. I thought then that in a few years the flag would be gone, in the Confederate Relic Room and to end that debate once and for all. There’s no compelling reason to maintain that current confederate flag at the Soldiers Monument, cut the flagpole down already.

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E Norma Scok June 19, 2015 at 10:40 am

If we pull down the confederate flag, can we also remove the African American history monument as well? It was only put up as a knee jerk appeasement to leaving the flag there.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 10:50 am

Sure, move that to the museum as well.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:02 am

Are the African-Americans a defeated bunch of insurrectionists?

Not yet.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:04 am

Not the point. If we’re going to have an honest agreement, past is past, future is future. These monuments should be in a museum. And feel free to say back to me “so should you Dr. Jones.”

E Norma Scok June 19, 2015 at 11:37 pm

Agreed–take down all of them. Make the statehouse grounds for the statehouse, and thats it. make the whole thing one big park–except for the statehouse. Hell, take the state flag down too for all I care. What do we need that for? I’m sure somehow it offends someone.

But that won’t be the end of it.

We’ve already seen in Charleston those who want to tear down historical buildings and rename streets; there is no end to the madness. I’ve heard it for buildings in Clemson and at USC.

This will never stop, until everything is one big, pointless, character less urbanized sprawl.

Crooner June 19, 2015 at 11:04 am

Who suggested taking down the monument? It’s just the flag that has to go. And every time someone interjects a quid pro quo for something of African American interest (MLK Day, AA Monument) they’re simply proving the point that the flag is about race.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:07 am

Like ++++

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:21 am

You need to understand the history of the flag move to understand the point he’s making. The NAACP agreed to the move in exchange for the monument. Just as soon as the monument was built, they went back on their agreement and demanded the flag be taken down.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:29 am

Which suggests the flag is the issue. Why not just remove it. Now would be the perfect time, don’t you think?

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:31 am

Might be fun to try it…

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:34 am

Why fun to try. What does that flag represent that is more important than healing a state? If history, then a museum is a place of rest.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:38 pm

Bulldozer would work just fine. Back up we can use water cannons – but only if I get to man one.

Denozitall June 19, 2015 at 10:50 pm

Let that bulldozer just keep rolling!

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:38 pm

Bulldozer would work just fine. Back up we can use water cannons – but only if I get to man one.

Tom June 19, 2015 at 1:12 pm

So exactly how is it you contend the NAACP went back on their “agreement.”

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:17 pm

What we have right now is what was agreed to by the NAAACP when the flag came off the roof.

Lonnie “my diabetes” Randolph had called for the flag to be taken down almost the day after the monument was finished. He called for the boycott based on the flag – if you can’t see how that is going back on the agreement you might need to make an appointment with Dr. Randolph for some glasses.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:20 pm

And that was 15 years ago. Let’s just call it done with. Time to take down the flag. Those who will feel the most jilted are those who never wanted it off the dome to begin with.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm

And then it will be Wade Hampton, The Relic Room… and none of it will make a lick of real difference except to the few who need a political victory to garner support.

But for the sake of argument, let’s take it down, I don’t care any more.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:35 pm

No, I think it will mean something to more than just complainers. I think someone like St. Senator Pinkney would have appreciated it. I think a lot of the meaningful leaders in the African American community that matter the most – the Rev.s and Preachers – their flocks – will appreciate it. The NAACP will sort of appreciate, but bitch for more, that’s their job. But that 50 year old black guy, working on some labor job in Barnwell County, or along 321 somewhere – it will mean a lot to him. Because to him it would represent hope for the future of his state, and for his kids and grand children. And that Colonel – is priceless. (How am I doing – I have an interview as Trumps speech writer later next week)

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:37 pm

You place a lot more power in that flag than it ever really had, even as a symbol of hate. If the Confederate Flag affects your destiny in any way, shape or form, I pity you.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:39 pm

Truth be told, it’s not the flag that I think has symbolic power – it’s just cloth. It’s that it’s there. I think the act of removing it has power, not it’s being no longer there.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm

On a side note, are you a civilian now? Hope all is well.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 2:20 pm

Nope, got caught in a “…we’re not quite done with you yet…” power play do I’ll still be playing army until Christmas. With three kids still in the house I need the money so I’m not complaining (to) loudly.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 5:05 pm

Roger that. Kids ain’t free. Oldest just got a DL – you think cool. Then you leave your State Farm agent.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 5:07 pm

Two with licenses and one more to go. USAA baby, twenty eight years. They get ticket, they get their own insurance.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 5:09 pm

:) – have a good weekend.

Squishy123 June 19, 2015 at 2:19 pm

The NAACP won’t be happy until they can follow up with ISIS tactics regarding history.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 2:20 pm

You are probably right.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 5:03 pm

No, I’m actually suggesting the flag to the Relic Room.

Tom June 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

What was the agreement? How was it worded? Sounds to me as though the agreement was the flag will be removed from the dome to a monument on the state house grounds and a monument to African American History will be constructed.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:28 pm

That was the gist of it. The law specified that it be moved to the Confederate Memorial. Here’s the actual law: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t10c001.php

Tom June 19, 2015 at 1:44 pm

Ok, so its even clearer now. The NAACP was pushing for legislation to remove the flag completely. The compromise legislation that passed, was the flag will be removed from the dome and placed on a monument and the African American History Monument will be constructed. The NAACP did not lobby to block this legislation.
So where in all of this did the NAAACP ever enter into an agreement to abandon all efforts to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? .The answer is no where. The two things are unrelated. Not opposing legislation is not an agreement to do or not do anything in the future. It is not even an agreement not to come back and try to have the legislation changed. Sometimes you take what you can get and start a new fight to make it better.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:49 pm

This article explains the whole deal in a lot more detail than I have. http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20130810/PC16/130819917

Ass I’ve said several times today, I no longer care, take it down.

Tom June 19, 2015 at 2:05 pm

Good article. So its exactly as I suspected. The legislature passed compromise legislation, the NAACP did not oppose the legislation, and now flag supporters say they can never bring up the issue again.
Boy wouldn’t that be an interesting rule. The US Congress passed Social Security Legislation and Medicare Legislation. decades ago. The Republicans can never bring that up again. If only.

nitrat June 19, 2015 at 10:42 am

When you see SC politicians like Mark Sanford and Nikki Haley demonstrating their abject terror at confronting the flag issue as they did yesterday and today on TV, Courson is a small cog in the wheel.
It will take a Republican leader and there ain’t no such thing. All Republican politicians do is pander to the lowest common denominator. And, the Democrats are too stupid to constantly call them on it…and, that applies to virtually every issue.

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Squishy123 June 19, 2015 at 10:38 am

I agree take it down, as soon as the other side agrees to take down that gaudy African American monument on the Statehouse grounds.

You know what’s going to improve in the black community if it’s taken down? Not a fucking thing.

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Tunes'n'News June 19, 2015 at 12:14 pm

“the other side” – who is that?

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Tunes'n'News June 19, 2015 at 12:14 pm

“the other side” – who is that?

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Squishy123 June 19, 2015 at 2:11 pm

The Dindu Nuffin tribe.

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The Colonel June 20, 2015 at 7:50 am

I actually like that monument though I could live without the ‘stokes litter” slave ship replica.

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Look Out June 19, 2015 at 10:40 am

Glenn McConnell is about to start catching a lot of heat for his support of keeping that flag on the Statehouse grounds.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 10:59 am

As well he should.

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Mom June 19, 2015 at 10:50 am

Stop the grandstanding! This is not the time to debate the confederate flag issue. This is the time to show the rest of the country that South Carolinians come together in a tragic time involving white on black crime. No one is looting or rioting in the streets. Unlike Baltimore or Missouri, our people are coming together in support of each other, praying together.

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 10:56 am

Funny how our “racist, backwards, podunky little state” can figure out who and what to be mad at (and even forgive) while the rest of the country tries to destroy itself when one person does something evil.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 10:59 am

People go nuts when a jihadist blows something up and kills people as well. So what’s your point? Terrorism causes terror.

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:12 am

And my point is some folks run around like chickens with their heads cut off and and then there are Charlestonians who are acting like they have some sense.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:14 am

Hours from Charleston there were bomb threats yesterday.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:29 am

and yet…

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:32 am

People died Colonel. No one is running around like ” chickens with their heads cut off” but looking for solutions. Answers.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:55 am

That’s my point Frank, they’re looking for answers not throwing rocks or burning the city down

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:02 pm

The comments are so fast, everyone has a lot to say on the topic, much gets lost in the translation. I agree, they are looking for answers, to make sense of the senseless. Now is a time, we could all come together in unity for our state, the people of our state and for humanity in general. Removing that flag could help. As would more emphasis on mental health.

I did not realize until yesterday guns were not allowed in church. It is odd they can carry a gun to a restaurant, but not a church.

Change only occurs when necessary. I believe it necessary.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:02 pm

The comments are so fast, everyone has a lot to say on the topic, much gets lost in the translation. I agree, they are looking for answers, to make sense of the senseless. Now is a time, we could all come together in unity for our state, the people of our state and for humanity in general. Removing that flag could help. As would more emphasis on mental health.

I did not realize until yesterday guns were not allowed in church. It is odd they can carry a gun to a restaurant, but not a church.

Change only occurs when necessary. I believe it necessary.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:55 am

That’s my point Frank, they’re looking for answers not throwing rocks or burning the city down

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:30 am

And yet Charlestonians are acting like they have some common sense.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:31 am

Well, we do actually have a lot of it down here.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:34 am

And twice now in relatively short order, Charlestonians have demonstrated the grace and good common sense that the rest of our nation would do well to follow – who’d a think it?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:46 pm

Well, we’ve always been a little liberal down here. I think for some reason I never have understood, the level or racism, or the form of race relations, in Charleston has always been better than other parts of the state. It could be that historically there have always been a larger number of African Americans here and during re-construction we all learned to enjoy poverty together. I suspect it had more to do with the influx of northern African Americans during the heyday of the US Navy in North Charleston. But yes, either way – a city mourning, but a city proud, and not one to turn on itself.

The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 1:07 pm

Eh, if trend to disagree about why Charleston is that way and about the state as a whole. We’ve had several incidents that demonstrated that our little podunky state understands that there is evil in the world and that the actions of one do not necessarily reflect the beliefs and desires of the many. The shooting of the motorists in Columbia seems to reflect that.

The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 5:02 am

Makes sense. Georgetown is similar. Right out of high school, I went to work at a radio station there. I was also dating a girl who lived there, in an old vic house that had once been a mansion. It was still not too shabby, in what I’d call a middle-class neighborhood. I was surprised to find that all over the town, you’d find blacks living next door to whites in such areas. With very little problem. My home town of Myrtle Beach, on the other hand, was highly segregated.

My job at the station was short-lived, though. If I’d thought racism did not exist there, I was way wrong. I played a lot of soul, R&B, what could be called “beach music”. Much like my DJ mentor the late Billy Smith at Tiger Radio in MB. One day I was playing “In The Basement” by the great Sugar Pie DeSanto. A woman called me and asked “Why do you play so much n****r music?” I answered: “Just to piss off fucking bigots like you.”

Turned out she was the daughter of the owner of the station. Barely had time to clean out my desk before I was escorted out of there forever. I always thing about it when I pass that old building, now part of urban blight, falling apart and home to rats and cockroaches. The insect kind, I mean, OWB.

The Buzzman June 20, 2015 at 4:44 am

I will grant that this is the case. Good.

The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 10:58 am

Actually, it’s the perfect time to debate the issue. We have a governor who caved to the Republicans to take the name off of the body cam bill or the black man shot by a cop in Charleston. She evades the issue of the flag while doing her own grandstanding as the supposed great peacemaker queen of the state. Sanford was no better, of course.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:14 am

Our governor was also one of the first to talk about Mental Health, but did anyone listen?

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 11:43 am

Mental health is the easy road on an issue like this. She deserves no kudos for taking the easy road.

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cuvinny June 19, 2015 at 11:01 am

Why is now a bad time to talk about? Currently the traitors flag is fly high ‘n proud while the US and state flag are low in reverence.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/s-confederate-flag-charleston-shooting-article-1.2263306

You don’t think it is a little insulting that the flag that this racist shit loved and displayed so proudly is up in everyone’s face after what he did?

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:30 am

Come together, support each other, pray together and remove that flag. Removal of that flag could expedite the healing process. The families might find some small amount of closure in knowing the people of SC do care and are making a genuine effort to put an end to racism in this state.

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Daniel Boome June 19, 2015 at 10:55 am

“Irrespective of who’s right or wrong from a historical standpoint, why keep something that’s needlessly offending people? Whether the flag stands for “heritage” or “hate” – or neither or both – it is being perceived as hateful.”

While I have no problem with the flag coming down, this statement is irrelevant for what I think are obvious reasons. At some point, perceptions becoming reality are going to eat us alive. The truth is that the “offensive” nature of the flag has more to do with the fact that people are taught that they should be offended by it, therefore the actual “offensiveness” of it is nothing more than mass consciousness. Or, in this case, mass offensiveness. It’s just like some redneck being told over and over again that the flag represents his “heritage”. Keep telling them that over and over again and it becomes reality, whether it’s true or not.

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nitrat June 19, 2015 at 11:04 am

Crooner’s comment above yours is much more to the point.

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Daniel Boome June 19, 2015 at 11:13 am

Except for the fact that I think flag supporters become more zealous due to the fact that they have opposition, rather than the fact that they simply believe in the cause.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:06 am

So you think maybe Hanoi should fly the South Vietnamese flag at their nations capital building because it’s historical? Maybe Israel should fly the Palestinian flag in Jerusalem?

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Daniel Boome June 19, 2015 at 11:14 am

You must have missed the part where I said I support the flag coming down. I’m disagreeing with the reasoning FITS gives for doing so, that’s all.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:30 am

Oops. My apologies.

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Crooner June 19, 2015 at 11:00 am

Undoubtedly people sharing the views of the Charleston AME Church shooter find tacit government support of them in the flying of the confederate flag on the statehouse grounds. One may find it unfortunate, but it is true that the flag has been co-opted by groups Civil War buffs wouldn’t want to be associated with. Much like the Nazi co-opted Swastika, the confederate flag has got to go.

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Useurbrain June 19, 2015 at 11:05 am

The confederate flag represents soldiers fighting for slavery and racism as much as the stars and strips represents oil security and imperialism for soldiers that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan(both untrue btw). Why did the states secede and form the confederacy; for slavery and racism. Why did the union declare war on Afghanistan and Iraq; for oil security and imperialism. Should the confederate flag be represented in an area that has current law making powers( state house grounds); no, but neither should the American flag. If the state house grounds are going to be a monument to our past then it should stay, however if it is supposed to be where the business of the state legislature is done and nothing more then move the distraction.
This website continues to underestimate the importance of federalism, the balance of power between federal and state governments, and it’s utility in maximizing liberty. For many the “cause” was to ensure that states retained something in that balance.

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Nölff June 19, 2015 at 11:10 am

I’m of German/Austrian descent. I could fly a Swastika flag and call it heritage, but that would be wrong in many ways.

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The Colonel June 19, 2015 at 11:14 am

You couldn’t fly it in Germany.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 11:12 am

I think the simple question is this – “Is it worth taking it down in a show or reconciliation?” I say yes. As I recall, it doesn’t fly over the Custom’s House on East Bay Street. Heck, they didn’t even have the decency to bring it half-mast after the tragedy. Big ooops there.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:18 am

It should have been taken down years ago. Place it in a museum somewhere, can’t cost that much to wrap a flag up and put in a box. Burn it for all I care, but it is time for people to come together instead of tearing each other apart over a flag. An ooops is unlikely.

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tomstickler June 19, 2015 at 11:15 am

Speaking of knee-jerk reactions, here is a list of questions that need time to answer:

1. Why was Dylann wearing body armor when he entered the church? Where did he get it?
2. Where did he buy the gun and ammunition? How many shots were fired?
3. Did he follow Clementa Pinkney from Columbia to the church? Why did he ask for him by name?
4. Where was he headed in his flight to North Carolina?

One of the victims sent a SnapChat video prior to the shooting showing Dylann seated at the table with other members of the Bible study.

Commentary based on incomplete info or reflexive emotion live on the Internet to embarrass us in the future, so tread carefully, grasshoppers.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 11:22 am

Do any of the answers really matter? Several people are dead, I doubt they are interested in why he was wearing body armor, where he got the gun and ammo, how many shots were fired or why he headed to NC.

The article yesterday stated he had been taking Suboxone which is used to treat heroin addiction. It’s true it is used to treat heroin addiction, but the more common use is to treat opiate abuse. Heroin is an opiate, but the most commonly abused opiates are not heroin. It’s Oxy, Roxy, Lortab and many other drugs that are prescribed by doctors.

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????????? June 19, 2015 at 11:19 am

And the NRA blamed Sen Pinckney’s anti-gun stance so….

Few are exempt from politicizing this tragedy, even you.

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9" June 19, 2015 at 11:19 am

Rebels/The flag should go,and is the bane of an embittered Southerner’s

existence.Much love/hate going on.It’s hard to

explain….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfHd-i0DWoE

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Manray9 June 19, 2015 at 11:22 am

The Confederate flag is the symbol of a failed rebellion against the legal government of the United States. As a symbol, it was co-opted in the fifties and sixties by segregationists and white supremacists. It belongs in a museum.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:45 pm

I agree put it in a museum, bury it, do anything but fly it in the face of so many it causes pain.

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staffer June 19, 2015 at 11:23 am

I agree. My grandfather left me a bunch of civil war art and put it up in my house because I thought it looked cool. I am not a civil war buff and don’t really appreciate the heritage argument but after I saw John Stewart’s commentary on the shooting, I took down all of it. Regardless of the motives behind recognizing that part of history, it should not be celebrated in any fashion given the connotations the symbol gives today. There are so many other things that we can celebrate that do not divide us, even if the division is embedded in perception and not true motivation. Most people that celebrate the confederate flag are racists. Period. I am not but I could understand that people would perceive that am if they saw the confederate art in my house. So I took it down. There are streets in our state named after confederate generals that fought to keep black people from driving. There should be no opportunity for anyone to perceive that our government sanctions racism. It is part of our southern culture that we need to change. We need to address hate groups like they are terrorists because they have shown to be equally as dangerous and culpable. We should protect our black brothers and sisters with the exact same passion and regard as we do every citizen that has lost their life to a terrorist act. I am outraged that the acts of this fucking asshole kid are written off as just a mentally disturbed kid. There are groups that are promoting this type of violence and they need to be found and eliminated.

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Charlemagne, King of France June 19, 2015 at 11:54 am

part of me believes that if there is ever serious movement towards taking the flag down, hugh leatherman will find a way to sell the confederate memorial to SCV.

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Charlemagne, King of France June 19, 2015 at 11:54 am

part of me believes that if there is ever serious movement towards taking the flag down, hugh leatherman will find a way to sell the confederate memorial to SCV.

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JimBob June 19, 2015 at 11:55 am

Ok take it down. Then what? Do you really things will change?
Back a few years ago when this controversy was flaring up, as it does from time to time, the Reverend Lonnie B Randolph, a local NAACP oficial was asked on a local radio show about the issue. His response was clear, it must be taken down. But was even more scary was that he went on to say that after the flag came down, they would address those inappropriately honored. When asked what that meant, he stated that the Confederate Memorial Day could no longer be observed and all statues of “rebels” must come down. He elaborated further and said that all of the places named for Confederates must be renamed.
Is that what you want?

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Terry June 19, 2015 at 12:16 pm

Maybe we could celebrate Confederate Memorial Day and Benedict Arnold’s birthday on the same day. After all he is the founding father of American Treason.

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Terry June 19, 2015 at 12:16 pm

Maybe we could celebrate Confederate Memorial Day and Benedict Arnold’s birthday on the same day. After all he is the founding father of American Treason.

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JimBob June 19, 2015 at 11:55 am

Ok take it down. Then what? Do you really things will change?
Back a few years ago when this controversy was flaring up, as it does from time to time, the Reverend Lonnie B Randolph, a local NAACP oficial was asked on a local radio show about the issue. His response was clear, it must be taken down. But was even more scary was that he went on to say that after the flag came down, they would address those inappropriately honored. When asked what that meant, he stated that the Confederate Memorial Day could no longer be observed and all statues of “rebels” must come down. He elaborated further and said that all of the places named for Confederates must be renamed.
Is that what you want?

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Krazy Kat June 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm

Uhhh, it’s a little PAST time, don’t you think?

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Krazy Kat June 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm

Uhhh, it’s a little PAST time, don’t you think?

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 12:46 pm

[Please forgive me… This is a really long post!]

If you take down the flag, knock-over the monument, and pluck-up and melt-down
all the grave markers, and smash every tombstones–every possible vestige of
South Carolina’s confederate history—It will accomplish ABSOLUTELY NOTHING:

It will NOT change the way the rest of the country sees South Carolina. (They
have had their mind made up about us for over 200 years, probably much longer.)

It will NOT solve any social or moral problems—including those of race—whether
they be real or imagined.

It will NOT bring people together.

Why? Because it’s NOT the FLAG making things the way they are, it’s PEOPLE
making things the way that they are.

[Note: Caps being used for emphasis, not yelling.]

I would hate to see the flag come down because it sets a dangerous precedent
and invites an Orwellian rewrite of the past—one that does not offend, one that
by its very nature can be neither honest, nor true.

This, of course, has a DIRECT EFFECT on the PRESENT and FUTURE… This is the
ONLY reason why it matters.

For the sake of argument:

Let’s say all “painful reminders” of the antebellum South is removed, not just
to a museum, but effaced from the earth, then what?

How about offensive books or other mediums of communication that present facts
or ideas that do not conform with the latest –ism or –ology endorsed by
government, academics, or whoever else determines what is correct and
acceptable concerning the South? Burn the books? Monitor communication? Outlaw
speech?

How about the people who refuse to forget that which should be forgotten?
What shall be done with them? Re-education? Prison? Slaughter?

This line of thought is not at all unreasonable.

The logic of the trajectory we are on, if continued will lead to this and more
if we let emotion rule the dictates of reason and common human decency—which is
always in mutual respect and a willingness to live and let live.

You needn’t agree with the traditional Southern understanding of the why and
wherefores of the war to prevent Southern independence. You may find the
memorials to the Confederate dead offensive. You may hate the so-called haters
with all of your heart, but what will be next? Who will be next?

The incident in Charleston is tragic on so many levels. Words fail to communicate
the disgust, disappointment, and anger that a crime of this nature evokes.

No one (at least that I have heard of) has tried to excuse or justify this
grizzly murder of this group of unarmed people. No one wants this violent
behaviour to continue or see the guilty go unpunished. (Many, including myself,
would like to see the guilty pay with his life if convicted by a jury of his
peers.)

The way this tragedy is being handled, however, make victims of people—in this
case, those of African descent—who remain whole and hail, and wrap up the
innocent—those of European ancestry (who also happen to be Southern) that had
nothing to do with this crime—with the guilty.

The true victims and the actual person or persons responsible for this crime
have become the background story to a larger issue which may or may not be
justified.

At this stage we do not know.

I think folks should morn for the actual victims and those who love them; pray
that they can carry this awful burden that comes with this kind of loss; pray
that justice will be served on the guilty; and that the judge and jury of his peers
will render the appropriate punishment for a crime of this nature.

Anything above and beyond this is very, very dangerous.

Calling for the removal of the flag in the middle of this tragedy is an empty
gesture at best. (Perhaps opportunistic as well…)

It obfuscates the real issue: sometime really bad (or troubled, or sick) people
sometime do really bad things. Heinous things. Awful things!

There will always be people who, for whatever reason, feel justified in
committing atrocities. Humans are flawed. Some, obviously, more than others.

The best thing, in my humble opinion, is to try to prevent these atrocities
from occurring, or better yet, stop them by being vigilant (and preferably
armed), all the while making the best of a bad situation and making the most of
the time we have left.

We can never know when death will come calling or by whom or by what it will be
delivered.

Thank you for reading.

Paul C. Graham

Editor, Palmetto Partisan Journal

SC Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:49 pm

I would like to see what the black think. Thank you for your lengthy contribution, an opportunist Editor for Palmetto Partisan Journal. SC Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans. We do appreciate you taking this “opportunity” to make your statement.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:31 pm

You are so very kind, Mr Right. Thank you for the opportunity to post in a pubic forum.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:37 pm

You are every bit an opportunist as those you speak out against.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:44 pm

Very presumptuous, Mr Right. You don’t know me.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 2:01 pm

I dont have any problem discussing my views with black friends when the occasion arises. I often do. Some seem interested in what I have to say, others are indifferent. I have never had a bad experience except when speaking with angry white know-it-alls or professionals race hustlers (of various ethnicity) both of whom presume to speak universally on behalf of all black people.

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Really?? June 19, 2015 at 12:51 pm

Sir, I must give you a polite “Go fuck yourself.” It has offended many people over many years.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:51 pm

I concur.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:52 pm

Nicely done. Your prose are magnificent and your logic is impeccable. I give up.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:19 pm

Your logic is lacking and while your prose are persuasive. Very biased. Step outside. Clear your head. Think about those who just lost loved ones. Think about the deep seated racism that exists here. Think about how much that cost. Remember the veterans. Lives lost.

Deep seated racism. Take deep breaths. Slow in. Slow out. Count.

Think of a better future.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:51 pm

“It will NOT bring people together”

I entirely – disagree. It would be the greatest show of unity to bring the people of this state together.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:53 pm

He is hoping to promote his own cause and somehow found this site. I think we should put him on mute.

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ROcky June 19, 2015 at 12:55 pm

No. Let him speak. He has every right. But he’s wrong. Protecting that flag, at the expense of the people who just died, in particular a revered member of the Legislature – is the best example of a hollow argument I can think of.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 12:58 pm

He is playing politics better than our politicians are. Sure, give him the time to speak his mind, that is the way of free speech. Does his site offer the same? Is he coming here to find those who are likeminded to spread more of his untruths and continue beating the drum of division. Those are question to ask. If you support the flag being taken down, he is only here to cultivate those who disagree. The only surprise is, no link to the site.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm

everyone has google.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:26 pm

My thoughts exactly. That is why you didn’t need post site. You are only here to dredge away whatever crumbs might support your cause.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

It’s not me using the situation, it’s you.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:30 pm

Using it only for an honest debate.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:40 pm

Go back and read your post. It is not the veterans I am opposed to, it is that you are acting like a politician and do not seem to the value the lives of the living. It’s an age old debate. All these people are dead, including those that died yesterday. We can’t change that, but we can change tomorrow with a more open and inclusive heart.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:23 pm

Nice.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:41 pm

Why did you come here today? Certainly not to help heal our state. Why?

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 2:52 pm

I came here today because I come to FITs everyday.
I don’t happen to believe that healing includes cultural genocide which, as far as I can tell, is at the heart of this issue.

That’s my honest answer.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:07 pm

Cultural genocide. Interesting use of terms. I’ll let it rest there for a while. If this is SC’s best, if clinging to a flag that divides, and continues to breed hate, also breeds leaders. We will continue to receive hate.

Who’s hate is the biggest? Is that the solution.

My honest opinion.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 3:36 pm

I dont chase around people and demand that they abandon their cultural heritage. I dont organize boycotts or harass people because they of a different ethnicity, or had a different historical experience in America, or any other reason. America is a place with many people and many histories. I have never asked anyone to be anything but who and what they are– I’m perfectly content to let 1000 flowers bloom; to live and let live.

Seems to me, those who do otherwise are the ones with the anger or “hate” problem.

I dont hate anyone (at least anyone that I can think of at this particular moment) and if I did, it would be for something more substantial than skin pigmentation.

I am sure you are sincere, but your stereotyping of those of us who know who we are, where we came from, and are not ashamed of it is really… I don’t know… prejudiced?

I’m done for today. Feel free to have the last word.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:46 pm

Thank you for allowing me to have the last word. I do apologize if I incorrectly stereotyped you, but your words in original post were very political. Guns and flags.

I don’t hate anyone either. Some I choose not to associate with, but not due to hate. Rather a difference of opinions.

Think about it: “those of us who know who we are, where we came from, and are not ashamed of it is really”

No one is asking you to be ashamed. I am asking for compassion. I am asking that we bury prejudice. That we remove from our culture anything that is symbolic of a horrible time in history. Place it in a museum.

You can still have your gig and appreciation, without infringing on another person’s rights.

I have no ill meaning for the veterans that fought for what they believed their very survival. That time has past.

Together we could do great things.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 4:19 pm

Your kind words are most appreciated. We agree on the destination, just not the road to get there. That’s not nothing!

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:24 pm

I thought you were really done for the night? I’ve got more where that came from, hang around. Let’s enjoy this banter.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:23 pm

Would Confederates be allowed at this show of unity? Are we a part of “the people” to whom you refer?

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:26 pm

The last Confederates died around 1930. If you got any still alive, please feel free to bring them along. Otherwise, the Confederacy died in 1865. I would expect all attendees to be representative of one singular group – known as Americans.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:36 pm

Why do we have no flags flying on SC state grounds for the Vietnam veterans? Or did they put those out of sight?

The issue isn’t whether or not we appreciate the veterans who did what was ordered and to protect what they thought was theirs. Times have changes and so should we.

I vote we move the flag to a museum, veterans families can still visit, but why keep it front and center?

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 2:10 pm

It’s front and center because the monument is front and center. The flag was placed there in 2000 to remove it from a place of sovereignty, and erect a historically accurate (square) flag at a historically significant place in order to clarify its meaning. Its front and center because the general assembly, with the concurrence of the legislative black caucus, voted to put it there. They also voted to erect an African American monument which was also done. Were you not here in 2000?

Anyway, I’d love to see the issue go on the ballot and would gladly submit to the outcome if the election was free and fair.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 2:12 pm

That would be nice. I think however, the time is now for reasons other than simply the desires of the sons of the men who fought under the flag.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:09 pm

You know full well if the issue goes on a ballot, it will fail. You also know why it will. Sometimes doing what is right means letting go of long held racism and division.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 3:17 pm

I dont know that and neither do you. I’d be willing to put it to a vote. I am not, however, willing to be bullied with names such as “racist” to have it moved (without a fight).

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:21 pm

I could agree with putting it to a vote. In a jury sense. Each race has X votes to cast. No more. No less. Would you agree to that?

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 3:53 pm

Frank, Frank, Frank… Listen to yourself. You divide people up by race like some white nationalist. How would they be chosen? By lot? What about the Latino, Oriental, Middle-eastern, etc., citizens of the state? Does their vote count or do they sit on the bench because they are not the right colour?

I’ve enjoyed they exchange, but this is beginning to get tedious.

Your obsession with race is unhealthy.

If I have time, I will respond to your what-ifs tonight or tomorrow.

Make them good though.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:58 pm

I might say the same to you. I prefer not to make you feel any worse than I already have, but my vote in the above – I’d be stereotyped as a white. Sucks right?

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 4:13 pm

I don’t feel bad at all — at least not about anything you have said.

That’s mostly because I know that flags or guns or hate or any other abstraction or inanimate object can like another person or group of people. Only a person can do that. Maybe a combination of people in this case– I dont think we can say at this point. Apparently you think that all of these “things” can and everyone would be happy if only this or that were implemented or this or that were destroyed.

That’s not normal. (Are you a Yankee?)

What I can say is that the person or persons who did this should (and I believe shall) be punished to the fullest extent of the law, i.e., death if convicted. I support this 100% because it is right. A crime of this magnitude cannot be tolerated in a civilised society. I dont care who did it, where they came from. or who they killed.

That’s my position on this tragety.

It is completely unrelated to the measures you and FITs would like to see implemented.

I’m done for today– for real this time.

Goodnight.

(You got the last word– for real this time)

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:23 pm

FITs and I agree on about as much as you and I might. Whether I am a Yankee or not is irrelevant. Haven’t you heard those damned Yankees are taking over SC? Prejudice all around for anyone who isn’t southern born and bred. That you feel the need to ask that question, shows where you stand. I don’t need to say more on that topic, the amount of vitriol you have expelled on the topic says all that need be said. Indicative of all that is wrong with SC.

I disagree with punishment to the fullest extent of the law – that would be a death penalty. I think it was Whitney Houston defending Bobby Brown who said, “he doesn’t need to go to prison, he needs help” referring to his drug habit. No one listened.

Are you listening yet?

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:00 pm

Respond whenever you want. I like an honest dialogue. Good day Paul.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:08 pm

I also vote to remove that monument. Take down every semblance of reminder of a horrible time in our history on both sides. It will take both sides agreeing, but it can be done.

E Norma Scok June 19, 2015 at 11:42 pm

Why not Iraq and Korean war veteran flags, too? How about a flag for the special ops folks lost in Grenada and Central America in the late 80’s?

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 12:54 pm

“there will always be people who, for whatever reason, feel justified in
committing atrocities.” – so – maybe if you consider what was 150-years of continuous atrocity of slavery – you might understand why we don’t need a flag on the state capital grounds to honor it.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 2:18 pm

Slavery was a colonial institution imposed by the British, inherited by the newly made American States, and subsequently survived in both Union and Confederate states until the 2nd and ratified version of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution. What was the 1st version? Look it up. It was called the Corwin Amendment.

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Crooner June 19, 2015 at 1:10 pm

Paul: Sorry, but your flag has been co-opted by hate groups. Your heritage, however, has not.
Consider this: the sharing of the stars and bars with hate groups both dilutes and obscures the very heritage your group fights to maintain. In other words, you’d be better off without an affiliation with that flag.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:26 pm

Maybe you are right, but why should they decide the issue?

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:27 pm

Why should you?

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:46 pm

The men who fought under it charged the sons to do so. It’s their flag, after all.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 2:10 pm

Paul – I had a relative die under the regimental flag of the NY 76th at Bawners’ Farm. They don’t fly in Albany. A museum is just fine. And it’s air conditioned.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 2:47 pm

I can dig it. Still, I’d prefer to keep the compromise as that was adopted by the SC general assembly when we thought we put this issue to bed 15 years ago. It could and should have made things better, but it didn’t. Alas…

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:23 pm

Political again, the SC General Assembly adopted it, it must be right. I haven’t seen anything they have done wrong in recent years. Think. Be honest.

Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:02 pm

They have every right to keep it in a nice tidy box next to their bed or beg a museum to display it. I’ve got flags of my own, but I don’t fly them at high mast, even on personal property. Why? Unnecessary and unproductive.

Crooner June 19, 2015 at 3:17 pm

Some people ruin it for everyone else.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:21 pm

I only posted my affiliation with the SCV to be forthright with who and what I am. My views do not necessarily reflect their views. Glad to find this sea of love and tolerance for folks who have opinions contrary to yours, Mr Rockey, Mr Right, and whomever else has all the answers.

I also created a new disqus account so that my identity was not hidden behind a
screen name. Like most people, I normally post under a screen name. Given the nature of the issue, I wanted to take full responsibility what I had to say about this madness.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

You want to start a civil war all over again and that is why you posted your name. Not to be forthright. A martyr in the making? May the wind always be at your back.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

Steady ranger.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm

Wind at back is actually a good thing. Easy Eagle.

Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:48 pm

Very presumptuous, Mr Right. You don’t know me.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:00 pm

“Very presumptuous”, then why not speak, without tossing in political wedges. Which you accuse the author of this topic of using as opportunistic. You are no different.

You don’t know me either. I do know enough about the flags to understand what they mean. i.e. Pledge of Allegiance. It means many things for many people.

Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

Paul, I fully supported your ability to express your views on the flag. I’m extremely tolerant of your views. I just don’t happen to agree with them. I’m not about to belittle you or your feelings about the flag and your southern heritage. But again, I just think its a symbol that would be better off viewed under glass.

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Paul C June 19, 2015 at 1:49 pm

Civility. Thank you sir!

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 1:22 pm

Let’s dissect. There are a lot of negatives: NOT. How can you know until you try. No, that isn’t a question, but a statement, because we haven’t tried. It is nothing more than one man’s opinion: Paul C. Graham.

Then what? Let the healing begin, give people time to move forward. Including those lives of Confederate Veterans. There is nothing good to be gained from hate. No one hates on the confederate veterans.

I agree it is time to mourn. Then what? Time can heal most wounds, but not if we keep picking at scabs.

Agree, “Anything above and beyond this is very, very dangerous.” What you propose is beyond. You are making political statements about gun rights and the right to fly that rebel flag. In between is all the fluff.

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Krazy Kat June 19, 2015 at 1:19 pm

McConnell is gone. What have they got to fear. It’s not like after three weeks anyone will even remember.

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Jackie Chiles June 19, 2015 at 1:31 pm

Next time a black guy is killed by a white guy:

AND THIS OCCURRED IN A STATE WITH A STATUE OF WADE HAMPTON, A CIVIL WAR GENERAL ON ITS GROUNDS.

After that’s removed, next time a black guy is killed by a white guy:

AND THIS IS IN A STATE THAT STILL HAS A COLLEGE WITH A HALL NAMED AFTER A GUY WHO SAID HE LYNCHED BLACK PEOPLE

After Tillman hall is changed, next time a white guy kills a black guy:

AND THIS IS IN A STATE WITH STREETS NAMED AFTER A CONFEDERATE GENERAL

After all state street signs remove any reference to confederate generals, next time a white guy kills a black guy:

AND THIS IS IN A STATE THAT HAS A COUNTY NAMED AFTER A GUY WHO ARGUED IN SUPPORT OF SLAVERY

After Calhoun county is changed to Al Sharpton County, next time a white guy kills a black guy:

AND THIS IS IN A STATE THAT PROVIDES GOVERNMENT MONEY TO HOUSE CONFEDERATE RECORDS

After all confederate records are transferred into private hands or destroyed, next time a white guy kills a black guy

AND THIS IS IN A STATE THAT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF RACISM.

And that’s basically the end result anyways. This donkey wasn’t motivated to kill these good people by the confederate flag flying on the state house grounds nor was he motivated by respect for the Confederacy. Guy had mental problems, access to a gun, and was a racist. We can remove any and all signs relating to the confederacy. Hell, we can even try to purge any memory of the confederacy from the South Carolina collective consciousness by purging history books, monuments, and art regarding the confederacy in the way that Roman emperors purged their predecessors names from the history books. None of that will stop racist donkeys from murdering other people.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:38 pm

OK, how about this one then. We find the little puke guilty, and hang his ass next to the flag, in front of the State House, using piano wire, and Leatherman has to pull the chair out from under him. Better Jackie? Oh, and we have to let his body hang there for six days.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 1:42 pm

Oh, right Taz – I forgot. While hanging there, we get to burn a cross, with dried branches of cotton plants next to it. OK?

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Tazmaniac June 19, 2015 at 1:39 pm

Don’t forget the same Cross that the Klan uses in their ceremonies is the same Cross that is displayed on top of that Church and all throughout.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 4:33 pm

This was something done to people in a historically significant black church that “just happened” (yeah, right) to have as its pastor a black SC Senator who has been extremely outspoken against the flag being displayed on Statehouse Grounds. THAT’S the issue. All that other bullshit aside.

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 2:20 pm

My last post on this. It should come down. As a sign of reconciliation and healing. And it’s not Nikki’s job to do it. It’s the Legislature’s job to do it. And they should, after all, they lost one of their own. And we’re a small state. The legislature could call themselves back into session tomorrow, pass it, and move on. Then they can come on back down for another kumbaya session at the Church.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:52 pm

I do appreciate her efforts. I do think she is genuine. She of all people knows what it is like to be “different” How quickly we forget and remember.

She is one of “us” but I am sure she dealt with racism. Still does. So she likely isn’t the best person to deal with this.

Legislature should call themselves back into session to address this matter. Dire times call for drastic measures.

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Jamie Graham June 19, 2015 at 2:57 pm

Ok folks – This flap over the Confederate Battle Flag – Slavery – So on and so on…The last ship to carry slaves was.. Check out the flag it flew! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanderer_(slave_ship)

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 4:30 pm

Cousin Jamie, CSA was on the wrong side of history. The war was lost, to the United States of America. SC is on the wrong side of history today by keeping that flag in place. The appropriation of the Confederate flag by the KKK and other hate groups is a far bigger issue than the reality of its use in the war. Whatever it was then, and whatever it symbolized when our ancestors fought for the CSA pales in comparison to what it means now to so many. It was originally put on the dome in defiance of the civil rights movement and integration. The Klan influence had waned some, but putting it up there in a position of honor said to the world, “We agree with the KKK.” The prominent position it holds now on the Statehouse grounds does not change that.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:43 pm

I don’t even get the whole last ship to carry slaves unless it is to make a point that the slaves were sold by their own people. That I can agree with in large part. However, no country at that time implemented the brutality that happened here.

That in conjunction that after slavery was abandoned, the whites, particularly those who needed them, mostly your southern states, were bitter and did not want to let it go. They should have. When you get your ass kicked, best thing to do is lick your wounds and try something new, not the same ole shit.

In 2015, it is difficult to fathom racism still exists to the extent it does. That is not exclusive to white, but blacks are also racist. I think a lot of that has to do with oppression. No one like to admit that. We have had several programs in place to mitigate it. None have fully worked.

Why? I recognized years ago, when someone is wrong, they want an apology. Imagine that. A simply acknowledgement that we were wrong.

It wasn’t about the money, but it became about the money, because there has never been a simply damn apology. An effort to truly work together. I do think SC has become much better at that, but they really need to put that flag in a museum.

Let us co-exist and learn to love each other without all the racist crap. Those who hold it dearest, on both sides, will die soon, and we have no more excuses.

Away with all the hate. I cast it off as the most evil of evils.

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The Buzzman June 19, 2015 at 4:38 pm

Rev. Pinkney, in his role as SC Senator, has been extremely outspoken in his opposition to the flag being displayed prominently on Statehouse grounds. Do you imagine that this was not at least part of what motivated that sick young man to go to Charleston to kill him?

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:45 pm

I didn’t know that, but makes sense. Everyone has good thing to say about him. Even those who did not agree politically, say his heart was so big.

I do think the young man was drug sick, but who knows, there had to be something wrong with someone who would do that.

Why? That is what everyone wants to know.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:35 pm

50% of votes favor PUT IN A MUSEUM

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Rocky June 19, 2015 at 5:00 pm

And 20% want it burned. So that’s 7 out of 10 say move it. Let’s see how Saturday goes.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 5:01 pm

The majority either want it burned, moved or destroyed. I am willing to concede and have it put in a museum for those who so desire to look upon it, but it needs to be moved.

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 3:55 pm

The truly sad thing about all this. It is sad that racism still exists in 2015. It is sad that Mental Health is lacking. It is sad that we can carry guns to restaurants, but not church. It is sad that we need a gun in church or restaurant.

It is horribly sad that some drug made some young man do something so horrific it shakes our world apart. But there are answers….

1) Ability to recognize the problems.
2) Better Education, that starts at home.
3) Continue to develop oppressed areas – pay now or pay later.
4) FAR better mental health care availability. Prevention not incarceration.
4 a) Cognitive Behavior: Change your attitude. This is the most important. People are the problem and there isn’t enough legislation in the world to fix this problem. We must fix it. Together and only together, we can.

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Toyota Kawaski June 19, 2015 at 4:45 pm

ah yes Mr. Rich checks are less frequent these days because vouchers have been shoved up his azz… Thomas was a Joke(misery loves company)… next gig…. go after low hanging fruit and get PAID win or loose.(which will be the case). True poverty Pimp Will Folks

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Frank Right June 19, 2015 at 4:47 pm

Is that the best you got? We might want to quarantine this area off due to smell.

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Toyota Kawaski June 23, 2015 at 9:23 am

Mr. Dead Wrong!!! I only call a spade a spade. Folks is getting paid to help lead this effort. Don’t be so stupid to think otherwise. BTW I will continue to carry my gun any dam where i please and it’s because of folks like Dylan Roof.

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Frank Right June 23, 2015 at 9:31 am

Who the fuck is paying him? Where is the proof? How much money was he paid?

Who is paying you?

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spydie June 19, 2015 at 9:31 pm

The confederate flag is part of our history- just because you don’t like something doesn’t give folks the right to get rid of it ! Thousands of young men died defending that flag and they’re deserve our honor . Our nation would not be what it is today w/o that flag flying.
stop thinking everything is racially motivated, it’s not, it’s our history. We need to teach our children the reasons for the civil war so they’re understand the men who died defending that flag need to be honored not forgotten and taken out of the history books.
Wake up America, one or two bad apples doesn’t spoil the whole bunch!
We have proud northerners and southerners, pay respect to both.
Any state that wants to fly the flag should be allowed to do so. Our constitution gives us freedoms, that’s one for sure !!

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Soft Sigh from Hell June 20, 2015 at 11:54 am

Southerners surrendered their Confederate flags to the hate groups in the 1950s and 1960s, and without a recorded peep of protest apparently. The heritage types can thank themselves for allowing the flag to become a recognized racist hate symbol. It’s long past time to be able to correct that.

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tyronemamacollards June 20, 2015 at 1:28 pm

it is bad karma. remember what it says in the Bible about the sins of the fathers being visited upon successive generations?. that is what we have with this flag. Its bad shit.
Put it in the State Museum.

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intlet9949 June 21, 2015 at 7:39 am

The flag will stay right where it is unless there is a strong and vocal movement to bring it down. I think this might get national attention and unnecessary bad publicity for SC. Let the supporters purchase a private property in downtown Columbia and fly the flag on private property.

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Greenwood Goblin June 21, 2015 at 1:58 pm

The confederate flag is part of the official seal of the Town of Lexington.

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