SC Episcopalians Bolt From National Church

THE SCHISM ESCALATES A majority of churches in South Carolina’s Lower Episcopalian Diocese voted to leave the national church this weekend over its support for gay marriage and the ordination of openly gay clergy. The decision comes a month after the national Episcopal Church found Bishop Mark Lawrence – leader of…


A majority of churches in South Carolina’s Lower Episcopalian Diocese voted to leave the national church this weekend over its support for gay marriage and the ordination of openly gay clergy.

The decision comes a month after the national Episcopal Church found Bishop Mark Lawrence – leader of the Lower Diocese – guilty of  “abandoning” the church as a result of his failure to support these teachings.  Specifically, the church accused Lawrence of failing to “guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the Church” by an “open renunciation of the (d)iscipline of the Church.”

FITS was the first media outlet to report on this brewing schism last month.

At the time, it was unclear whether Lawrence would be able to get a majority of the churches in his Diocese to support him.  He did.  Now the question is whether the Upper Diocese – which includes Episcopal churches in the Midlands and Upstate regions of the state – will follow suit.

Ironically, the South Carolina Diocese predates the national church by four years – forming in 1785.

“The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina continues to be a constituent part of The Episcopal Church, even if a number of its leaders have departed,” the church’s ruling Bishop said late last week.

The Episcopal Church began ordaining gay ministers in 2003 – and earlier this year approved an official liturgy to bless same sex couples.  These practices have created a rift between socially liberal and socially conservative congregations in the church – similar to rifts that have developed in other protestant faiths.

As we’ve said from the beginning, we don’t care if churches sanction gay marriage – or if they let homosexuals preach.  We don’t support either practice – but we believe such decisions should be left to individual congregations.


Related posts


North Charleston Councilman Accuses Cop Of Falsifying Police Report

Will Folks

‘Carolina Crossroads’ Update: SCDOT Set To Unveil New Plan To The Public

Will Folks

Federal Lawsuit Alleges Racial Discrimination in Horry County School

Callie Lyons


Edward November 17, 2012 at 10:56 pm

Great, so a bunch of bigots are leaving a church. Next topic.

Strawman November 17, 2012 at 11:24 pm

Edward, why is Satan so misunderstood?

He really is a nice fellow.

SCBlues November 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm

Thanks, Edward – my sentiments exactly!

Reddawg November 18, 2012 at 12:10 am

With you all the way Mark. Keep standing on the foundation of the Gospel

Jock Stender, Charleston November 18, 2012 at 12:23 am

I was baptized and confirmed at Charleston’s St. Philips Episcopal Church — one of the “conservative” churches that, I understand, has abandoned the national church (“The Episcopal Church in the United States of America” or “ECUSA”).

I transferred to Grace Episcopal Church, also in Charleston, twenty years ago. Grace is one of the “liberal” churches that supports gay marriage and the ordination of gay priests.

Grace Church, that is to say, welcomes all into its fold, as Christ did, no questions asked. The “other” news is that the intolerant, elite break-off “schism” episcopal churches described above — and the Roman Catholic Church — are increasingly becoming marginalized, irrelevant, and losing congregants.

On Oct. 9, 2012, The New York Times, article, “Percentage of Protestant Americans Is in Steep Decline, Study Finds” (see below) concerning the latest Pew Research study on religion, also reveals the rise in “the nones” — Americans who adhere to, really, no religion.

Call them “the drop-outs” — disinterested in this bitter, internecine social, moral, and pseudo-religious gate-keeping.

More comfortable sleeping in on Sundays. I understand this large and growing flock one hundred percent.

May the conservative, mainline protestants — described below — cultivate their own gardens and share the bounty with one another.

After all, as Voltaire had Dr. Pangloss tell Candide, we live in the best of all possible worlds. We do, don’t we? Right? Right?

— Jock Stender, Charleston


For the first time since researchers began tracking the religious identity of Americans, fewer than half said they were Protestants, a steep decline from 40 years ago when Protestant churches claimed the loyalty of more than two-thirds of the population.

A new study released on Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that it was not just liberal mainline Protestants, like Methodists or Episcopalians, who abandoned their faith, but also more conservative evangelical and “born again” Protestants. The losses were among white Protestants, but not among black or minority Protestants, the study found, based on surveys conducted during the summer.

When they leave, instead of switching churches, they join the growing ranks who do not identify with any religion. Nearly one in five Americans say they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular.”

This is a significant jump from only five years ago, when adults who claimed “no religion” made up about 15 percent of the population. It is a seismic shift from 40 years ago, when about 7 percent of American adults said they had no religious affiliation.

Now, more than one-third of those ages 18 to 22 are religiously unaffiliated. These “younger millennials” are replacing older generations who remained far more involved with religion throughout their lives.

“We really haven’t seen anything like this before,” said Gregory A. Smith, a senior researcher with the Pew Forum. “Even when the baby boomers came of age in the early ’70s, they were half as likely to be unaffiliated as compared with young people today.”

The “Nones,” as they are called, now make up the nation’s second-largest religious grouping. The largest single faith group is Catholics, who make up about 22 percent of the population. Their numbers have held steady, mostly because an influx of immigrants has replaced the many Catholics who were raised in the church and left in the last five years, Mr. Smith said.


Judy chop November 18, 2012 at 1:19 pm

Life is just too easy in the second decade of the 21st century. All our roads are paved and smoothed. Most have AC and Heat controlled by a thermostat. We zip around talking on our cell phones and worry about paying off our mortgages and our mostly worthless student loans.

Droughts and pestilences don’t seem to affect us anymore ’cause you can still buy milk, eggs, cigs, and beer at the Pig. Kids now need to play soccer on Sunday morning or go with parent(s) to shop the nearest sale.

Many stores will be open on Thanksgiving this year and we are probably only about a year or two away from stores being open Christmas day. I really don’t think it is about your minister being gay or the people sitting next to you being homosexual. Yep, we live in the greatest country on earth. Problem is the Muslims don’t agree with us.

M Holder November 18, 2012 at 2:28 pm

But, Christ said “Go and sin no more”!

Jock Stender, Charleston November 18, 2012 at 8:29 pm

Thoughtful discussion about the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life and “the nones.”

— Jock Stender, Charleston


“Religious leaders respond to the rise of the ‘Nones’”
Published by Religion News Service: In-depth. Impartial. Engaged.

Faith » Doctrine & Practice Section

Daniel Burke | Oct 10, 2012 | Comments (18)


As we noted yesterday, the number of Americans who have no religious affiliation has hit an all-time high, according to a new study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

One in five adults does not belong to an organized religion. Nearly a third of Americans age 18-29 don’t have a spiritual home.

“I think it goes without saying these are pretty significant changes in the American religious landscape,” said Greg Smith, a lead researcher on the Pew study.

Needless to say, this study hits home for religious leaders. So we asked a number of them why they thought so many Americans were walking away from organized religion. Their intriguing responses are below. We’ll keep adding perspectives as they come in, so return here for updates, and please feel free to suggest additional sources.

[Comments are given by each of the following contributors.]

Bill Aiken, director of public affairs at Soka Gakkai International – USA
The Rev. Peg Chemberlin, executive director of the Minnesota Council of Churches
Andrew Cooper, features editor at Tricycle: The Buddhist Review
Rabbi Arthur Green, rector of Hebrew College Rabbinical School
The Rev. Mark Hanson, presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Rabbi Rick Jacobs, president of the Union for Reform Judaism
The Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of “The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything”
Terry Mattingly, religion columnist and editor of Get Religion
Bishop Vashti McKenzie, leader of the African Methodist Episcopal Church in Texas
Russell Moore, dean of the School of Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Ross Murray, director of Religion, Faith & Values, GLAAD
Eboo Patel author of “Sacred Ground,” and founder and president of Interfaith Youth Core
Staccato Powell, pastor of Grace AME Zion Church in Raleigh, N.C.
The Rev. Bruce Reyes-Chow, author, blogger and Presbyterian Church (USA) pastor
Bishop David Ricken, chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Evangelization and Catechesis
The Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference and the Hispanic Evangelical Association
Bishop Stacy Sauls, chief operating officer of the Episcopal Church
Suhag Shukla, executive director and co-founder of the Hindu American Foundation
Chris Stedman, assistant Humanist chaplain and Values in Action Coordinator for the Humanist Community at Harvard University
Ed Stetzer, vice president of Research and Ministry Development for LifeWay Christian Resources
The Rev. Jim Wallis, president and CEO of Sojourners
The Rev. Jerry Wilkerson, pastor of Clark’s Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church in Tar Heel, N.C.
George O. Wood, superintendent of the Assemblies of God


Comments ( 18 )

anonoman November 19, 2012 at 2:08 pm

Single Parent Households.

CoolAireHeights November 18, 2012 at 12:50 am

Jock, your point?!… that church attendance is declining nationally because they’ve become cauldrons of controversey due to loud, brash, and vocal pro-gay advocates who depict traditional congregants of said churches as bigots (@Edward, above)? And, rather than face this, they’d rather stay home and/or play golf? Well, if this is your point, than yes, I agree… and also, if you’re one of those pro-gay advocates?.. well played my friend for killing traditional religion in America (and for moving us to a more godless society)…

SCBlues November 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm

CoolAire – if someone is a bigot, what is wrong with calling them that?

“Killing traditional religion in America”? Please!!

I guess you are talking bout YOUR religion, huh? And I’ll bet your is better than the religion of anyone else, huh? If you are looking for a theocracy, there are some – pick one, move there and have at it. Or maybe if we can convince Texas to secede you can go and join up with that bunch.

MountainPenelope November 19, 2012 at 1:39 pm

I left “organized religion” for one reason – Christians (or, rather the pseudo-christians who fill up the pews twice on Sunday and any other time the church doors open) are some of the most mean-spirited, hate-filled people I’ve ever known, and that includes the preachers who are the true leeches on American society.

OhNoNotAgain November 18, 2012 at 1:42 am

What I find interesting is. wil’sclaim to be the first to repotting on his. Few ones back. Geez, I remember reading about a year ago in a newspaper.

BigT November 18, 2012 at 8:19 am

The FINAL blow from the SC Church is about 3 weeks old…

The State Newspaper and Atheist-bassed media have tried to make it seem like the SC church is a bunch of prudes and Conservatives…

I say let God show us whose side he is on…

He ssems to WIN everytime His people do his Will…

scmajor November 18, 2012 at 9:13 am

T are you saying it was gods will that Obama destroyed Romney in the election?

Guess that means all your ranting and raving was against gods will.

MountainPenelope November 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm


That was my take on it, major. God sent Hurricane Sandy to show his displeasure at all of Romney’s lies and BigOT’s racist rants.

Tom November 18, 2012 at 7:53 am

It will be interesting to see if any of these churches or the whole diocese follow a national trend and join the Catholic Church.

Not a chance November 19, 2012 at 7:44 am

Now Tom, you don’t think all those bigots at St. Phillips’s and St. Michael’s limit their hate to just the fags, do you? Believe me they hate those Catholics over @ St. Mary’s and down Broad at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, too. After all, everyone knows those Catholic congregations are full of fish-eaters, dagos and spics. Hate is hate, man, and once you become consumed with it there is no turning back…

BigT November 18, 2012 at 8:17 am

The Lutheran Church is beginning to put liberal politics before God, too.

We’re at a REAL Crossroads…will we Collpase ourselves over immorality of theb Secular, or will continue to be God’s Hope for enlightenment of his Word????

I would DIE to keep us in the light…and KILL the Rot and ugly Filth trying to corrupt our families…

We’ll Die if we do not choose the RIGHT side and FIGHT to keep us from swirling down the Toilet…

scmajor November 18, 2012 at 9:16 am


Put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.

You would fulfill your vow to “DIE to keep us in the light…and KILL the Rot and ugly Filth trying to corrupt our families…”.

BigT November 18, 2012 at 9:34 am

Don’t you atheist believe suicide is a Virtue…???

God gave me Life…so I owe him a debt to live and treat as precious…

You owe Larry Flint, Bill Mahr, Barney Frank, Barack Obama and the other princes of Darkness and Hate…and they would LOVE for you to OFF yourselves. They complain about you using the Earth’s Resources…as if it is theirs…

I know God put it here for EVERY living Being…and it is not to be Perverted as you do…

Thebeachisback November 18, 2012 at 6:15 pm

What kind of flowers do you want at your funeral?????? I’m guessing pansies!

Peace November 18, 2012 at 9:41 am

Interesting that the steep decline in membership in the Episcopal church coincides with the liberal political agenda advanced by the national church, and the lack of Biblical scripture-based theology that started in the 1960s – 2012. Ironically, the traditional Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina is one of the only dioceses in the Episcoapl Church USA that is growing and adding new churches and parishes.

BigT November 18, 2012 at 10:02 am

Great point….I also think: We are as polarized now as 1860. People are taking sides of Good vs leftwing Evil….

Obama-Clinton’s left of today is like the Slave-holders, who want to Impose their immorailtiy and pervert the Church…

America has always stood on the side of the Freedom to worship. It is what founded us…

The left is as emboldened as their Slave-Owners were 150-plus years ago…

They have NO idea the strength God will give us against their forced Hatred of God and decency…

Our sin has been to concede so muc to them on the basis of good-will and love…

John Blaze November 18, 2012 at 2:30 pm

“Obama-Clinton’s left of today is like the Slave-holders….”


You conservative, right-wing, neo-confederates today in South Carolina are something else. Your forefathers like Jeff Davis and Wade Hampton would be ashamed of you. That said, I understand the reasons for your attempts at revisionist history. If I had a similar lineage, I’d try to disown it as well.

MountainPenelope November 19, 2012 at 1:46 pm


America may have always stood on the side of Faith and Freedom, but South Carolina definitely has not.

In the early days, neither Catholics nor Jews could own land (until some greedy developers lobbied the General Assembly to let them sell to anyone).

Slaves could only attend the churches of their Masters, so they did. Hey, it got them out of a couple of hours of back-breaking labor on Sunday.

The Quakers were literally run out of the state in 1806.

So, maybe the so-called Christians are getting some of their own back.

nothin much November 18, 2012 at 10:34 am

good job, churches. i remember Jesus saying we need to discriminate against homosexuals. cause, you know, it’s our place to judge.
oh, sure, we all sin, but we ain’t all gay, amirite?!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 11:26 am

Jesus said God Judges Sin…And He said the Wolf is always at the door, and the false prophets would come to Crucify the Church again…

You are the epitome of a Pervert of the truth, and a False god puppet…

God does not tolerate sin and the Lust by Evil people…that is Why you will perish in the end…

You worship Flesh…and your spirit is dying…

nothin much November 18, 2012 at 11:54 am

yeah, that’s me. rawr!

MountainPenelope November 19, 2012 at 1:48 pm

I find it interesting that one of the most foul-mouthed posters on this board proclaims himself the religious expert.

Trinity November 18, 2012 at 11:21 am

No not all Episcopalians are gay but many are. Especially the clergy and many vestrymen. I attend one of the largest churches in Upper SC and we have gays and bisexuals in all aspects of church leadership. There are closeted and not so closeted clergy in Columbia. It’s an open secret known by many and not a big deal.

Lots of active gays and bisexuals in the church and many closeted married, but that’s probably a reflection of society as a whole and just not the Episcopal Church in Columbia. Most Christians I know think people should be free to be who they really are and not live a lie.

BigT November 18, 2012 at 11:30 am

Sounds more like you worship in a Swingers’ club…or a hedonistic flesh fetish…

What you are Describing is anything BUT a Christian church…

And I think that is EXACTLY what they are Defining in Charleston…

They know the church must remain pure to Christ or it’s dead…or it is nothing more than a Cult for Evil people…

Gregorio Casali November 18, 2012 at 12:31 pm

A “Church” founded due to a political dispute five hundred years ago

Tearing itself apart over another political dispute?

Good story

You people who go there want to declare something” holy “about a bunch of politicians(clergy) arguing their arcane political points go right ahead

Much ado about nothing really

9" November 18, 2012 at 12:42 pm

‘Tax the FUCK out of the churches!’
— Frank Zappa

The Jonestown Party November 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm

‘You can’t run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state’ Frank Zappa from “Dumb All Over”.

The Jonestown Party November 18, 2012 at 12:42 pm

Religion sucks!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Do you apply that to Liberalism too…???

Because usually people who say that attack anything that stands in the way of the effort to Bind others to idealistic prisons…

Liberalism is the most Dangerous Religion, w/ the most False god…And it hides behind the idea that it is politics..when we all know what that it is your theology…

SCBlues November 18, 2012 at 12:59 pm

And speaking of religion, Sunday in South Carolina is the most dangerous day to be on the road – the holier-than-thou SC Christians (with God as their co-pilot of course!) fancy themselves on a divine mission and in their fervor often claim more that 50% of the road – and if you get in their way they will not only speak in tongues but also speak in fingers – giving you the middle finger of course.

Another South Carolina Sunday observation – the after church-goers after having Sunday lunch in their dress-to-impress church finery, standing around picking their teeth with toothpicks . . . ugh!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 1:13 pm

Yet another reason to Persecute the Christians…they don’t drive like you want…wow…

Didn’t Hitler get his start by saying that about the Jews????…

Nice job…Leftwing Nazi, BIGOT!!!!…I’m sure Bitter-Clinger hater, Obama is smiling at your attack on the followers of God…

SCBlues November 18, 2012 at 1:32 pm

Hitler said that Jews gave him the finger on Sundays and that they stood around picking their teeth???

Too funny!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm

You find any reason Too Hate and Bash those those who don’t Worship the state…as you do…

You represent all Demagogues….

Raspy November 18, 2012 at 3:34 pm

What happened? For as far back as anyone could remember, the Episcopal church had an unofficial motto of, “the gayer, the better.”

Smirks November 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm

Wars, crimes, poverty, famine, corruption, greed, murder, rape, hatred, disease, gangs, addiction…

Nah, God cares much much more about two dudes banging each other as a married couple instead of two dudes banging each other as strangers. This shit is serious fucking business (pun intended). If only gay people could just disappear, which will totally happen via making them second class citizens with no marriage rights under law, then God and his loyal children could focus on all the crap that actually does create human suffering, not just butthurt whining due to someone not adhering to YOUR spiritual beliefs.

Either way, let these knuckleheads duke it out and split up. Eventually we can rank churches by uppityness and crazy, from the little “God loves you just the way you are” Christians like Mister Rogers, to the “God hates fags” Christians like Fred Phelps. Man, hard to say which person seems more “Godly” to me!

Raspy November 18, 2012 at 5:51 pm

Great post, Smirks!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 5:55 pm

A church either takes a stand against condoning sin…or there is no reason for it to exist…

If you don’t think it’s sin, then start your church and condone what these people don’t want to condone…

I’ll Never Understand why Liberals, who HATE Christians because they are competition to Liberalism…Try So Hard to Impose their immorality on the Church…

Just leave Christians churces along…go start your church, and practice whatever you want…It’s america. The Constitution protects you…

If a church holds to its traditions…Why does the left try to stop them…???

Smirks November 19, 2012 at 8:07 am

Why is homosexuality a sin? “Because the Bible said so?”

You can explain why murder and theft are wrong without using religion. Any man can reason why such sins are bad for society. Surely there is a logical explanation as to why two gay people being legally recognized as married would unravel the moral fiber of society?

Come on, I want to hear it. Using absolutely no religious foundation, explain using logic and reason how homosexuality is wrong.

If a church holds to its traditions…Why does the left try to stop them…???

It isn’t when a church wants to stay in its bigoted ways that it should be “stopped”, it is when said church tries to force its bigoted ways on the rest of society via defining marriage as only between heterosexual couples. What you’re really defending is church enforcing its beliefs on the people via blurring the line between church and state. And, because they are YOUR beliefs, you’re quite happy enforcing such bigoted, medieval beliefs on others.

Let them break off from the main church so they can continue to harbor their disgust towards their fellow man. It’ll be easier to label them for what they are without wrongly labeling the overall church that might disagree. They can have their funny beliefs about gay people right along with the rest of the bigoted churches out there, just like Mormons have their fucked up beliefs about black people.

Freedom of religion allows you to believe whatever fucked up stuff you want, no matter how far outside of reality it is grounded. Freedom of speech lets the rest of us call you out on your ignorance. And yes, no matter how hard you try to justify narrow-minded views about homosexuals with religious scripture, unless you provide solid, logical evidence that being gay is bad for society, you’re doing nothing more than admitting that logic has no bearing on how you form opinions about people.

Which means you’re a bigot, Big(o)T.

SparkleCity November 18, 2012 at 6:36 pm


I’m still waiting for you to come by so we can go to the “Independent Party Political Convention”

Don’t you remember posting that independents ARE a POLITICAL PARTY??

You even cursed me for NOT knowing that…………

I’ve left the porch light on and have the gas & motel money.

When are you going to come by and pick me up so we can go to the convention???

How long do I have to wait???

Why are you being so thoughtless and rude???

Please have the courtesy to reply……

BigT November 18, 2012 at 8:10 pm

STFU you blithering Idiot…You contribute nothing but Ignorance…unless you, and the rest of the F^&*in fools you ride w/, can piggy-back off me…

Do you Dumb@$$#$ EVER come up w/ an original thought???\

Or are you doomed to be mired in Dull, trite Stupid $#!*?

T-bot 5000 November 19, 2012 at 11:48 am

STFU… ®†¥¨ˆboop
capitalize Random words… boop

Biblical Marriage November 18, 2012 at 7:13 pm

Since these Episcopals are so hell-bent (see what I did there) on upholding the bible…let’s get marriage right for straights as well.

1. They will support stoning for adultery, right? Deuteronomy 22:23-24
2. They will support forcing rape victims to marry the rapist, right? Deuteronomy 22:28-29

And the list goes on and on. Of course in those cases — wait, wait — the bible isn’t literal. Oh, right. Good riddance. See you in hell.

Judy Chop November 18, 2012 at 7:20 pm

You left out the part about not eating fish that don’t have scales. Don’t eat catfish and sin no more!

Smirks November 19, 2012 at 8:11 am

Didn’t kings in the Bible have lots of wives and shitloads of concubines? I demand my multiple wives and harem of lovely concubines this instant!

BigT November 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm

My question: is WHY do atheists, or pop culture idiots, invest so much eneery into mis-chatracterizing a Book they HATE???

I thought the Hippies of the 60s just wanted to live and let live…a lot of them sought peace and were Jesus Freaks…

So uch has changed w/ the Socialist left…

Why are you imposing your Imorality on people who just want to be left free to worship as they see fit…

We have Killed enemies of Freedom over and over…What makes you think the sissification of yourselves and political correctness will protect you???

Jesus became VERY angry at the corrupt…and you Evil have been put asunder for generations (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, atheist Rome, and democrat slave-owners…

Why, all of the sudden, do you think Evil, hate, bondage and sin are a winning hand???

Dumb@$$ liberals…will you EVER learn???

T-bot 5000 November 19, 2012 at 11:50 am

I use feminine deodorant…
Beep Boop…

CoolAireHeights November 18, 2012 at 10:10 pm

“Jesus became VERY angry at the corrupt…and you Evil have been put asunder for generations (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, atheist Rome, and democrat slave-owners…

Why, all of the sudden, do you think Evil, hate, bondage and sin are a winning hand???”

….. beautifully said, BigT

P.Diddy November 19, 2012 at 6:49 am

Went to a cousin’s birthday party several years ago and the local Episcopalian priest, preacher, or whatever he calls himself was there. He could drink as much beer as any of the rest of us!!!

hawk November 19, 2012 at 8:00 am

Would you impose the SAME requirement of the Muslim religion? Would you demand the Muslim religion accept GLBT as part of their culture? Would you also say they MUST accept the GLBT members as Mullahs?

If not then why “force” Christian religions to accept things they dont believe in??

I see no condemnation of the Muslim religion when they murder GLBT people. And yet you pounce on the Christian religion.

The Christian religion is an easy target because they dont usually fight back. And when they do you blast them with hatewords and call them bigots. Last time I checked doing that was called being a bully – to make someone do what you want them to do against their belief. Why not let the Christian religion or in this case that church leave that association because they disagree? Or are you really that much of a bully??

Smirks November 19, 2012 at 8:55 am

Would you impose the SAME requirement of the Muslim religion? Would you demand the Muslim religion accept GLBT as part of their culture? Would you also say they MUST accept the GLBT members as Mullahs?

I would suggest that people should form their opinions and beliefs using logic and reason and discard any belief that harbors hatred, ignorance, or any unreasonable negative connotations (or actions) towards people.

Muslim theocracies usually put people to death for apostasy or conversion to another religion. Muslim theocracies usually enforce draconian rules against women because their beliefs call for such treatment. Some of those rules include being unable to go anywhere without her husband or a male family member, or female genital mutilation. Muslim theocracies put gays to death, to the degree where people like Ahmadinejad openly states that “we don’t have homosexuals in Iran” while speaking in America.

Of course, this is what tends to happen in theocracies. All those little beliefs that people formed by reading scripture and basing their entire belief system out of something written centuries ago with zero kind of logic filter are actively practiced by a vast majority of the people there, to the point that people rise to power by espousing those beliefs and gain popularity by making those beliefs law. People who disagree are ignored or violently attacked for saying things against the interpretations made by the religious leaders that are constantly becoming more and more strict in the rules of their scripture.

Like it or not, the Bible does declare homosexuality as a sin. That belief translates into banning same sex marriage via a majority of people believing that homosexuality is wrong, most of them due to religious beliefs, albeit not all. Because the constitution doesn’t specifically state anything to stop this (as it didn’t specifically state anything to stop a lot of laws against black people during times of slavery and segregation), these are allowed despite being completely against one’s civil rights.

At what point does homosexuality stop being a sin, though? Why not ban gay bars? Some Christians don’t approve of alcohol consumption, either. Ban gay porn? Many Christians think pornography is a sin. Ban any form of letting gays meet? Ban any gay sex acts? Why not jail people for being gay? It is a sin, why not make it a crime? Logic? Why should we apply logic to who we arrest? The Bible is the only logic we need, right? Gays were stoned in biblical times, why not put gays to death? Wait, you’re not against killing gay people, are you? HERETIC! UNBELIEVER! INFIDEL!

Society doesn’t immediately delve into cutting off the hands of masturbators, offing gay people, or mutilating female genitalia, but theocracies ultimately tilt that way. It is similar to boiling a frog slowly, if the changes are gradual enough the frog never realizes it is being boiled alive.

Christianity has lost a lot of what made it extreme over the centuries. More and more people discard what the church has preached, or in some cases, the church has “changed” its interpretation or stance on issues in order to appeal to more people and stay relevant. The vast number of denominations has greatly increased humanity’s comfort zone with discarding beliefs they may not necessarily believe in, not to mention the freedom to believe in any other religion entirely, as well as absence of religion. Either way, churches that espouse horrid beliefs about individuals that are not grounded in any way inside logical bounds don’t help society, they hurt it.

But yes, a church can believe whatever it wants, and I can believe what I want, and I can say what I want, so I can call those churches ignorant and their people bigots. I just want the government and the laws to remain secular. After all, one main idea behind secular government was to prevent one religion or denomination from establishing laws favoring their beliefs in order to protect the religious (or non-religious) beliefs of others. This is exactly what I want, a government that allows people to marry based on what THEY believe, not what a select group of people believe.

TL;DR: Any religion can have fucked up beliefs. Keep it in the church, let people believe what they want, just leave it out of our state/US constitution. kthx

Rastus November 19, 2012 at 9:25 am

SC Major;
Fortunately we will eventually find out what God’s will is and was. But I believe it was the delegates to the Democrat Convention that booed the very name of God. The road to hell is paved with a lot of good intentions.

Jan November 19, 2012 at 10:18 am

To all you non-Episcopalians posting here, what has this to do with you? Who is forcing anyone to do anything or believe anything? Who is imposing anyone’s morality on anyone else? No one.

This has nothing to do with politics. This is a dispute between wings of the the church. People are free to leave the Episcopal Church. No one is stopping them from doing so. Just as Baptist are free to stop being Baptists and Catholics are free to stop being Catholics and Muslims are free to stop being Muslims.

Christians are not monolithic in their answer to the question “What would Jesus do?” When they cannot agree they separate into Denominations. That is why we are not all Roman Catholics. So long as they focus their attention on Christ’s love of all mankind, they will find their way. If they focus on hate they will lose their way.

The dispute in the Episcopal Church has nothing to do with whether people can leave the church, it has to do with whether they can take the buildings with them.

People like Big T, cannot separate anything from politics. I assure you he is not an Episcopalian, and knows nothing about this dispute.

Hate is a cancer. Once you start hating people who disagree with you, who live their life different from yours, and calling people names like filthy, heathen, stupid, or evil, you buy into everything Christ fought. I assure you there is nothing people like Big T and Rastus, can teach you about Christ. But they can teach you a lot about hate; and understanding hate and how it expands to consume you is important. Once you accept hate you ascribe that emotion to everyone else. Once you embrace hate you embrace the evil it has always brought to the world.

SparkleCity November 19, 2012 at 11:09 am

I always felt Episcopalians had a lot of class.

The post above from “Jan” confirms that………

T-bot 5000 November 19, 2012 at 12:33 pm

One day the machines will rise and will shoot everyone in the face with lasers.
We’ll be all “pyew pyew pyew” in your face face.

It is written in the book of Caucasians 19:3.

Grandparent November 19, 2012 at 2:25 pm

Amen, Jan!

Phonebooth Bob November 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm

Good post Jan, from another Episcopalian. And you nailed it: It is about the property.

Jock Stender, Charleston November 19, 2012 at 11:15 pm

Amen. It is about the property. The Post and Courier quotes my friend and Grace Episcopal Church vestryman Steve Skardon as follows.


The Post and Courier
Convention sets majority in diocese on new Anglican path
By Adam Parker
Sunday, November 18, 2012

. . .

“So for now and the foreseeable future, having withdrawn from our association with TEC, we remain an extra-provincial Diocese within the larger Anglican Communion, buttressed by the knowledge we are recognized as a legitimate diocese by the vast majority of Anglicans around the world,” he said.

People in the diocese who are remaining in the church said Lawrence was mischaracterizing the church and diocesan history.

The diocese did not exist before the Episcopal Church, only a group of parishes (geographies) that were part of an established church in the region, the Church of England, said Barbara Mann, past president of the Episcopal Forum, a group loyal to the church.

After the Episcopal Church was founded, those parishes joined to become a founding diocese.

Though Lawrence and his colleagues have announced their independence, church officials do not recognize their claim, according to Steve Skardon, a cradle Episcopalian and critic of the breakaway efforts. “A diocese is to the church what a state is to the nation,” he said. There is no constitutional provision for secession.

To Skardon, who maintains a website devoted to the politics in the local diocese, the legal and administrative posturing is “all about property.”


The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina designated the Church of St. Luke and St. Paul at 126 Coming St. in Charleston as its cathedral church in 1963. Until Bishop Lawrence resigned several weeks ago, it was his church and was where his staff were located.

It was the church of my father and his parents. When my parents got married, my father transferred to St. Philips (my mother’s church) but my grandparents remained members of the Cathedral Church.

I have no idea where Bishop Lawrence is officiating now, or what in the world is the legal status of the Cathedral church, the grounds or the parking lot across the street.

The church website says this:


The Episcopal Church (TEC) has made an attack against our Bishop and Diocese, in the midst of efforts for a negotiated settlement, which has fundamentally changed our common life. You may have heard or read about this over the last week but it is vital today that we all understand what has occurred and what [. . .]


Someone with prescience said in Hanahan Hall at Grace Church when Rev. Gene Robinson was elected bishop, in 2003, that if a schism occurs in Charleston, it will be a fight over property, and that, basically, dissidents or secessionists would have to go and buy their own land and build their own churches.

This is what Steve Skardon now states in the Post and Courier.

Apparently we’re at that stage now.

I’ve just been writing to a few guys who are members of the Cathedral church about forming a bible study group. We all consider ourselves good Christians but this muddles things up for us. I’d like to meet at both the Cathedral church and at Grace but imagine that would be politically incorrect. I’d feel uncomfortable there now.

Maybe we’ll have bible study at Starbucks.

— Jock Stender, Charleston

reasonable November 19, 2012 at 12:34 pm

From a fellow Episcopalian….Amen, Jan!

9" November 19, 2012 at 12:37 pm

A good blowjob is a fucking miracle!

Vicky Jean is Not My Lover November 19, 2012 at 12:37 pm

God doesn’t care what you do with your pecker. Man does.

Being “gay” is not a sin. Taking it up the ass may be, as well as weenie gobbling. So just don’t. Go antiquing instead.

Sex outside of marriage is a sin, but it better not be too serious of one, or we are all in trouble.

Unless you are David Petraus, cause it is hard to blame him. Seen the wife? Seen the girlfriend? God understands that one.

Nikki gets a free pass too. Michael Haley vs. Will Folks. Four inches vs. nine. Plus she is a Methodist, and they don’t judge.

So, go chase all the skirt and suck all the gamecocks you want, say you’re sorry every other Sunday, and keep it to yourself.

(And don’t forget your pledge.)

Sunshine November 20, 2012 at 7:19 am

Interesting: “Nikki gets a free pass too. Michael Haley vs. Will Folks. Four inches vs. nine.”


Leave a Comment