A HISTORY LESSON …
|| By WILL FOLKS || My website has written extensively on the various banners used by – or associated with – the former Confederate States of America. For a brief history of those flags (along with a reiteration of this website’s views on the current debate swirling around Confederate flag), click here.
Here’s a question often overlooked in the contemporary cacophony, though: Why in the hell was the Confederate flag flying on government grounds in the first place?
Seriously: Who put the flag on the dome of the S.C. State House to begin with? After all, didn’t the Confederate generals who are so revered by the “heritage, not hate” crowd (a.k.a. supporters of the flag) lay these banners down?
Yes, they did.
In the May 1901 editions of The Boston Journal, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain – a hero of the Battle of Gettysburg – wrote extensively of the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia on April 12, 1865. Chamberlain was tasked by his superiors with overseeing the surrender of the weapons and flags belonging to Confederate general Robert E. Lee‘s troops – which he did.
The most gracious of victors, Chamberlain even evoked the scorn of many northerners when he offered a salute to his vanquished foe.
Confederate general John B. Gordon – assigned to organize the surrender – years later referred to Chamberlain as “one of the knightliest soldiers of the Federal Army.”
“Having thus formed, the brigades standing at ‘order arms,’ the head of the Confederate column, General Gordon in command, and the old ‘Stonewall’ Jackson Brigade leading, started down into the valley which lay between us, and approached our lines. With my staff I was on the extreme right of the line, mounted on horseback, and in a position nearest the Rebel solders who were approaching our right.
“Ah, but it was a most impressive sight, a most striking picture, to see that whole army in motion to lay down the symbols of war and strife, that army which had fought for four terrible years after a fashion but infrequently known in war.
“At such a time and under such conditions I thought it eminently fitting to show some token of our feeling, and I therefore instructed my subordinate officers to come to the position of ‘salute’ in the manual of arms as each body of the Confederates passed before us.
“It was not a ‘present arms,’ however, not a ‘present,’ which then as now was the highest possible honor to be paid even to a president. It was the ‘carry arms,’ as it was then known, with musket held by the right hand and perpendicular to the shoulder. I may best describe it as a marching salute in review.
“When General Gordon came opposite me I had the bugle blown and the entire line came to ‘attention,’ preparatory to executing this movement of the manual successively and by regiments as Gordon’s columns should pass before our front, each in turn.
“The General was riding in advance of his troops, his chin drooped to his breast, downhearted and dejected in appearance almost beyond description. At the sound of that machine like snap of arms, however, General Gordon started, caught in a moment its significance, and instantly assumed the finest attitude of a soldier. He wheeled his horse facing me, touching him gently with the spur, so that the animal slightly reared, and as he wheeled, horse and rider made one motion, the horse’s head swung down with a graceful bow, and General Gordon dropped his swordpoint to his toe in salutation.
“By word of mouth General Gordon sent back orders to the rear that his own troops take the same position of the manual in the march past as did our line. That was done, and a truly imposing sight was the mutual salutation and farewell.
“At a distance of possibly twelve feet from our line, the Confederates halted and turned face towards us. Their lines were formed with the greatest care, with every officer in his appointed position, and thereupon began the formality of surrender.
“Bayonets were affixed to muskets, arms stacked, and cartridge boxes unslung and hung upon the stacks. Then, slowly and with a reluctance that was appealingly pathetic, the torn and tattered battleflags were either leaned against the stacks or laid upon the ground. The emotion of the conquered soldiery was really sad to witness. Some of the men who had carried and followed those ragged standards through the four long years of strife, rushed, regardless of all discipline, from the ranks, bent about their old flags, and pressed them to their lips with burning tears.
“And it can well be imagined, too, that there was no lack of emotion on our side, but the Union men were held steady in their lines, without the least show of demonstration by word or by motion. There was, though, a twitching of the muscles of their faces, and, be it said, their battle-bronzed cheeks were not altogether dry. Our men felt the import of the occasion, and realized fully how they would have been affected if defeat and surrender had been their lot after such a fearful struggle.
“Nearly an entire day was necessary for that vast parade to pass. About 27,000 stands of arms were laid down, with something like a hundred battleflags; cartridges were destroyed, and the arms loaded on cars and sent off to Wilmington.
“Every token of armed hostility was laid aside by the defeated men. No officer surrendered his side arms or horse, if private property, only Confederate property being required, according to the terms of surrender, dated April 9, 1865, and stating that all arms, artillery, and public property were to be packed and stacked and turned over to the officer duly appointed to receive them.
That, friends, is “heritage.” Mutual honor. Shared respect. Joint admiration. Raw emotion. Exhaustion. Sadness. Pain. But at the end of it all … a laying down of the banners. A surrender.
“Heritage” is what Chamberlain described above. A solemn ceremony reverently concluding one of the bloodiest periods in human history.
Heritage is not – a hundred years after the fact – raising one of these fallen standards in a desperate bid to reassert some perceived dominance of one race over another.
South Carolina’s decision to raise the Confederate flag in 1962 was a calculated rebuke of efforts to expand individual liberty to black Americans – and it was wholly inconsistent with the noble laying down of arms at Appomattox.
As a boy, my father took me to many Civil War battlefields. I saw Little Round Top, where Chamberlain’s 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment held off – and then fixed bayonets – against exhausted Alabama and Texas troops under the command of brigadier general Evander Law. We also walked the ground where Confederate general George Pickett‘s men marched toward certain death in the charge that bears his name – a.k.a. the high-water mark of the Confederacy (and the blow from which its armies never recovered).
I saw Chancellorsville, site of the brilliant and daring flanking march undertaken by troops under the command of Confederate general Stonewall Jackson (who died days later of wounds sustained by friendly fire in that engagement).
“Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees,” Jackson cryptically said prior to passing away.
Famous last words …
And yes, I’ve been to the house – the very room – near Guinea Station, Virginia where he died.
I saw the bridge at Antietam Creek, site of the bloodiest day in American military history – on which 3,654 Americans gave what Abraham Lincoln would later famously describe as “their last full measure of devotion.”
I saw the ground at Spotsylvania Court House where Union general John Sedgwick fell dead from a sniper’s bullet seconds after telling his troops, “boys, they couldn’t hit an elephant from this distance.”
More famous last words …
I saw the hornet’s nest at Shiloh, the bloody pond at Chickamauga, the stone wall at Fredericksburg … and dozens of other sites which to this day bear mute testimony to the heroism and sacrifice displayed by soldiers on both sides of the conflict.
And I saw Appomattox – the very ground upon which the defeated Confederate surrendered their standards (as described above by Chamberlain).
Again, all of this is “heritage.” And it is America’s shared heritage, meaning it is not something which should be erased … or glossed over. Or misrepresented (at taxpayer expense, no less).
But the Civil War … is over. Has been for 150 years.
The flag honorably laid down at Appomattox should have never been raised again, and the fact it was – in defiance of individual liberty, no less – is not “heritage.” It is a stain on heritage. And the fact nine Americans have now been brutally cut down by a killer claiming this banner as his symbol is – and should be – the last straw.
Whatever the Confederate flag once stood for … its ill-conceived, ill-intentioned re-raising half a century ago has permitted its legacy to be hijacked by dishonorable, divisive cowards. Deadly ones at that.
Whatever it once was … through the actions of these individuals, it has become “hate, not heritage.”
Which is why it must come down.
Will Folks is the founding editor of the website you are currently reading.
Bravo, Will. We actually agree on this. Bravo.
I looked at the draft which said $9958@mk4
What was happening in 1962?… Racial integration in schools.
The state politicians at that time decided to extend the middle finger to the federal government by putting up that flag on the dome. Other southern states were rioting at that same time.
Exactly so. I remember it well.
Whilest enjoying the following Federal jobs programs: Charleston Navy Base, Parris Island, Fort Jackson, Myrtle Beach Air Force Base (go Warthogs), Savannah Nuclear Weapons Facility, Shaw Air Force Base, Charleston Air Force Base, road construction funds for I-26, I-20, I-95, I-85. Yeah, the usual southern two-facers – screw you Feds – now give us our welfare.
Can’t argue with that……….
Not to mention one of the biggest employers (if not the BIGGEST): Savannah River Site (unless that is the same as Savannah Nuclear Weapons Facility)
Come to think of it…..Remember Queen Namrata holding a press conference not too long ago stating that if they closed Ft. Jackson it would doom Columbia?
Yep, you are spot on…..
Here in the upstate a man was taped telling Bob Inglis that the damn federal government has to keep its hand off his Medicare!!!
PS: “Warthogs” = the A-1 Skyraider of the jet age!!!—
A-10’s are like the mighty C-130, not easy on the eye but try to find something else that does the job better!!!!!
If the flag was truely as divisive as it is made out to be, then explain to me the unity that SC has displayed in the past week, even during the flag controversy.
The flag is a strawman argument. When its taken down the next thing will be the confederate memorials, or the fact that confederate soldiers are burried in arlington. It will always be something more.
The only reason were even talking about it is to divert attention from a republican congress about to give a democratic president the authority to completly overhaul the world’s economy without any recourse.
The flag has been argued for decades, if we get rid of the damn thing people will stop arguing about it once and for all. Good riddance. The faster this is over the faster you can get back to watching Republicans give Obama what he wants anyways.
Did Folks distribute the stuff he is smoking? The flag is today’s compliant. Next month there will be a new list.
Won’t take a month.
you cant smoke BAT SHIT CRAZY. All this POS sees is $ signs. Dont like your team but have been loving your comments this last week or so. Good work cnSTD
It’s a lot easier to change a flagpole than it is to change people. A week/month/year from now this turn of events be but a page in history books. This will not change race relations, one little bit.
“If the flag was truely as divisive as it is made out to be, then explain to me the unity that SC has displayed in the past week, even during the flag controversy.” – True – united against – The Flag.
Strawman needs to learn the following: (just for starters)
(1) The proper spelling is “truly,” not “truely”
(2) “Its” requires an apostrophe when you are abbreviating “it is,” ergo “it’s.” However, this is not to be confused with the possessive use of “its” as no apostrophe is needed in that context.
(3) A comma is proper when an opening clause provides a basis in time, such as, “[w]hen its (sic) taken down.”
(4) “We’re” is a contraction for “we are.” As such, the use of “were” when attempting to state, “we are” is not proper when omitting the apostrophe between the first “e” and the “r.”
(5) A proper noun requires the use of a capital letter at the beginning. See “republican congress” and “democratic president.”
(6) The proper spelling of “completly” is “completely.”
I think the Confederate flag has become a political football, just like gun control. South Carolina, and in particular their state capital, suffered more devastation than any other state during Sherman’s March to the Sea. They have a right to honor their fallen and to remember those who lost so much during Sherman’s attacks on the civilian population.The Confederate flag did not cause the loss of life in Charleston. No more than Second Amendment rights did. A few have pointed out the use of drugs as contributing to the crime. That and a sick mind are the likely causes.The victors of war write the history. And that is exactly what happened after the so called Civil War in 1861-65. The Cross of St. Andrew, the Southern Flag has been maligned in the worse way by those individuals with personal agendas.The Cross of St. Andrew, the Southern Flag was a religious emblem of moral people.
“South Carolina, and in particular their state capital, suffered more
devastation than any other state during Sherman’s March to the Sea”
Toss up. Both were burnt to the ground. But the state’s damage was greater than Georgia’s. Gotta remember, S.C. was the richest state in the Union until the Late Unpleasantness. Massachusetts was #2.
“Toss up. Both were burnt to the ground. ”
Not only did the State House survive, but so did much of Columbia. Atlanta was just downright burned flat.
As for the state damage(SC vs GA), you may have a point- I really don’t know…plus you have the issue of metrics…meaning do we count lives lost, economic damage, or a mix?(or other factors as well)
well thought out. Yes, we had a shell, but, as you point out, at least, it was standing.
Shhhh, don’t stop him, he’s on a roll.
The heartbreak of home schooling.
Nah. I attended the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can’t Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too
Thank you for learning us some more english and grammer.
The ability of a gracious people to show grace has nothing to do with the disagreement over the flag.
Smash the semi-statues on Klan Mountain, Georgia.
Could Fits be drooling anymore about the pay for clicks they are getting by writing the same story 30 different ways? “Flag controversy”, “controversy over the flag”, “the latest on the flag discussion”, ” One new found word in debate about flag” , “The flag blew slightly to the left of the pole today”, “the flag part 2” “squishy123 is a racist”, “so is SCblues”, “blah, blah flag”, “research on the flag says…” “This one time at band camp a flag was there”…. . Over under on how many flag related stories before Friday? 10? 15? 20?? Im going to out the over under at 13.5
Yes. Money dictates this website. Its like the false hits he creates he creates with the websites stat counter program. Many times the instant he post a story or opinion, with 20 seconds its already showing over 1000 hits.
That’s just pogo refreshing the site a million times. He practically lives here.
True, from a click perspective, it’s great for Will. But keeping this brewing, keeping us posting, keep this argument alive until that flag comes down is an important role here. Will was the first to bring this up – and as he’s said – in the past he didn’t give a shit. But his change to it reflects the same shift many South Carolinians have had this past week. So yes, 10 stories a day, keep it to the front. The number of posts is visible to those moving this forward in the State House. Don’t for one minute let them think you’ve lost interest. Support their efforts, get this done.
Yawn. I’m already getting tired of hearing about it. Just vote to bring it down already. Jeez. At least Alabama did so in like 24 hours.
yea he dont give a shit till it puts money in his pocket. Rocky! are they in your head as well?
An excellent commentary,actually one of the best ones I’ve read in this entire matter.
Flagged as inappropriate!
That’s pretty funny.
A very moving and eloquent article. Could not agree more.
When the confederate soldiers fired on Ft. Sumter, they committed an act of treason against the United States. The Conf. flag also later became a symbol used by the KKK. I mean, the holocaust was a part of Jewish history, but do you need to display a Nazi symbol? Lastly, if the flag is removed, as it should be, then maybe the nine victims did not die in vain. May God rest their souls.
Mein Vater war ein Nazi- Soldaten , Ich bin nur feiern mein Erbe!
Ich feiere mein Deutsch Erbe, indem Senf auf alles.
Essen mein scheisse
Too lazy to translate (even through a simple browser)–or I don’t trust it’s binary code.
Can you please re-post the post and your response? Thanks
“it’s”! Grammarian, heal thyself!
Sure. German Heritage, Not Hate! said along the lines of “My father was Nazi. I’m celebrating my heritage”
I said “I celebrate my German heritage by putting Scharfer Senf (German mustard… Not Frenches yellow at all) on everything I eat.
(It’s pretty good stuff. http://www.amazon.com/Thomy-Scharfer-Senf-Mustard-250ml/dp/B0017U4TUE/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435232977&sr=8-15&keywords=senf You can find it at whole foods)
And Limbaughsaphatkunt says: “Eat my shit”
Not treason. Treason is a legally definable term, and they did not in fact commit treason. Rebellion? Along the same lines as the 13 colonies engaged in rebellion against the British empire. Emotion is clouding your thought process.
If removing the flag is what you consider an accomplishment from such a tragedy, I pity you. The unity in response from the community, the genuine concern for each other, even the incredible public safety response was truly meaningful… until the political hacks started whining about the flag at the monument. The press spent almost NO time showing the love and concern shown in response to the murders, yet they focus a WEEK on a small flag at a monument? Priorities and agendas, I suppose. Oh, and here come the gun control nuts. Never let a tragedy go to waste, and don’t let the needs of a wounded community get in the way of the agenda. Alinsky would be proud.
Jindal stuck his head into the trough, today.
He’s coming in strong — zero to 1% polling.
Don’t you mean ‘poling’ — like in the bayous?
or “punting”….. nah, that’ll come later, if he doesn’t do better.
that’s a good one …
…. and if he does do better, then its — “poontang”
Something out of the swamp –like an Alligator? After reading his statement on strong defense, his appeal to Christian conservatives, blaming everyone elected (excluding himself) for everything that is wrong with America. His great successes in Louisiana, the best media coverage he has is on BCC, putting his kids on hidden camera (NPR).
I can’t imagine a thing that could go wrong with his candidacy.
tee hee hee..!!
I’m waiting for the +5 maybe I set the bar to high? tee hee hee …LMAO
He also shat in his hat:
Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal really rolled out the red carpet to IBM. After executives of one of the state’s newest and most notable tech companies voiced vehement opposition to a proposed “religious freedom” bill in the state, Jindal signed an executive order modeled after the anti-LGBT measure, which had stalled in the legislature. IBM executives, in turn, cancelled a Monday ribbon cutting that was supposed to celebrate the opening of its new National Service Center, which is bringing 800 jobs to Baton Rouge. Andre Moreau reports:
The event on June 22 had been reserved for months, according to several city leaders, including Davis Rhorer, executive director of the Downtown Development District.
The technology giant IBM voiced “strong opposition” to Louisiana’s so-called religious freedom legislation as far back as mid-April.
In a letter to the governor, IBM executives said the legislation cut at the very heart of what their company stands for, equal rights and opportunity for everyone, discrimination for no one. The letter implored Jindal not to support any agenda that protected discrimination against LGBT people.
Jindal, naturally, did exactly the opposite.
Bobby Jindal—one smart dude. Hard to believe his presidential bid isn’t gaining much traction.
It’s a heritage of hate that we have been so proud of until that boy’s pictures showed the world what it really meant.
It’s time to stop pretending it was ever anything else.
Those pictures have overridden the ‘heritage’ talking point that was always a lie. Always. It was rationalization and almost every other defense mechanism you can think of. But, it was always a lie.
Conservative Bill Kristol and Mississippi Sen, Roger Wicker both lost their minds – if they ever had them – and, in the last 24 hours have praised the Americans who fought for the confederacy.
Duuuuuuh…Confederates fought AGAINST America and Americans, firing the first shots.
How did that insane disconnect ever happen?
There was never a disconnect – that’s the point. The “heritage” conversation was always about the “heritage” of domination over another racial group. On a side note, thank goodness Dylann wasn’t flying a Belgium flag. People would have been calling for no more Belgium Wheat Ale in Asheville, and that would have been very sad indeed.
Damn, its just like those wretched colonists who rebelled against the lawful government of King George. How insane was that?
Boom. Tragedy brings out sensibility even in Fits.
Everything you wrote, however, was true before the shooter killed those nine people.
And what you leave out was that the flag flying at the State House grounds NEVER flew over the armies of South Carolina. One regiment, maybe,but that is detailed in a post I saw. Which army, which regiments, used which flags.
But it was the flag of the Klan when it was put up in 1961.
Your conversion is much appreciated. But it shouldn’t have taken nine lives for anyone to come to the conclusion.
True. It shouldn’t have. In every politician’s life, when they look back, they will always have more regrets than victories. Most often they regret having failed to take the right action when they could. Rarely do they have an opportunity to face one of those regrets, and actually do something about it. It’s usually too late, they’re out of office, they have lost influence. In very few instances have they had that chance and seized it. LBJ did in the mid 1960s. Reagan had that chance in the mid to late 1980s with Russia. And our State Senators had that chance today. They seized that opportunity. It’s late, yes. It shouldn’t have taken a tragedy – you’re correct. But I will say this – without that tragedy they would have never found the courage. Until it cost them one of their own, it was easier to stay away from it. What we need to do now is keep our attention to the final efforts, ensure it is done, and be happy when it’s removed. No gloating, no celebration. Simply smile, be glad it’s gone, and move forward.
All the confederate war statues must be taken down. You can not just do a little flag. Its not in our faces anywhere near as much as the tons of statues honoring slave owners. Come on Will Folks. Grow some hair on your chest and be a real man.
Don’t forget all the monuments, city names, street names, etc. named after those slave holding US Presidents like Washington and Jefferson.
Calhoun county, jasper county, Clemson university, Lauren’s county, Sumter county, fort Jackson, lee county-all must be renamed. May I suggest the following replacement names, respectively: Malcolm x county; George Washington carver county; Denmark vessy university (or just vessy university); Barak Obama county; mlk county; fort Mohammed Ali; Crisis attUcks county. I suggest the city of Sumter also rename itself city of sharpton. The Jefferson Davis highway can become rev Jesse Jackson highway. All confederate museums can be converted into slave museums, and all confederate memorabilia be deemed contraband akin to owning drugs. Then, and only then, will sc achieve racial harmony
Don’t stop there. We should lobby to change the name of the following Forts across the U.S.
Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia
Fort Rucker, Alabama
Fort Polk, Louisiana
Fort Pickett, Virginia
Fort Hood, Texas
Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Fort Benning, Georgia
Fort Gordon, Georgia
Fort Lee, Virginia
Camp Beauregard, Louisiana
Those have already been suggested to be renamed. And people are calling to rename Lake Calhoun in Minnesota.
Upon further thought, we should also rename Washington DC because, while Washington did free his slaves at his death, he still was a slave owner. State of Washington should also be renamed. It’s flag should definitely be changed since Washington appears on it. The Washington Monument destroyed because it’s monument on government property honoring a slave owner.
Money must also be changed. Washington appears on the quarter and dollar. He must be removed. Jackson murdered like a million Indians and owned slaves. He should be removed. Franklin was a slave owner. He must be removed.
Jefferson City should be renamed. Dood impregnated his slave, then denied the white kids were his. The Jefferson Memorial also has to be changed to the MLK memorial.
James Madison University must be renamed. That dood was a slave owner.
Washington & Lee must be renamed. Obviously.
Any mascot with rebel in it must be changed, unless the rebel was a rebel from Star Wars.
Movies glorifying the South or the Civil War must be banned and removed from being licensed. I’m talking about you Gettysburg, Gods & Generals, Gone with the Wind, Dukes of Hazzard, Andy Griffith (not so much glorifying slavery, but there’s no black people in it).
More close to home:
Hampton County must be renamed. He was a civil war general for the South. His statue must be removed from State House Grounds. Any reference to Wade Hampton must also be removed from street names.
Anderson County should also be renamed. I haven’t read up on him, but I’m pretty sure Robert Anderson owned slaves.
The South Carolina flag must be changed back to the original Moultrie Flag because the current iteration of the SC flag was adopted during the time South Carolina was a member of the Confederacy.
Georgia, Arkansas, Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi-all must change their flags. Texas too since the only reason Texas declared its independence from Mexico was because it wanted to keep its slaves, making the Texas flag equivalent to the Confederate flag.
Going to be a lot of work people, but it’ll be worth it in the long run so we’re sure to eliminate any reference to the Confederacy or the Old Racist South from our collective consciousness. This is America after all.
In regard to the Jeff Davis hwy renaming, I suggest it read My Baby Daddy Jesse Jackson highway.
Don’t forget – the little mice paid for the experiment.
When I was in school–in the south–we were taught that we were Americans, first and foremost. What happened?
Americans elected a black President.
A little thing called the Nixon Southern Strategy……………….
A true example of conquer and divide if there ever was one (still going on with gerrymanedering by the hard core right)
Why in the hell was the Confederate flag flying on government grounds in the first place?
Google is your friend.
Lest you forget what the Civil War was really about, remember my words set forth below. THIS is what all the confederate flags truly represent. Alexander Stephens, Vice President, Confederate States of America.
“…The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”
Saw this today:
Ever wonder what would have happened if the Confederate States of America (CSA) had won:
1. Slavery would still be practiced today.
2. The CSA would have evolved into a dictorship with the removal of many civil rights for all whites.
3. In 1871 the Great Northern Wall of the Confederacy would have been constructed to reduce “bleed off” of slaves escaping to the north.
4. WWI would have lasted until 1923 do to manpower shortages in the USA lengthening the time to prepare to enter the war.
5. In 1905, in response to the number of slaves fleeing north the Great Northern Wall of the Confederacy would be expanded to include minefields and machine gun emplacements.
6. In 1925 in response to efforts by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Ministry to provide assistance and education to slaves – the leader of the CSA would instigate the “De-vatification Program” resulting in the death and execution of over 275,000 southern Catholics and Lutherans, many in New Orleans, Charleston SC and Baton Rouge.
7. In December 1941 the CSA would have allied with Germany following Hitler’s Declaration of War on the United States, allowing Hitler to eventually win the war in Europe.
8. Starting in 1944 the CSA would begin a program of forced abortion for people of color in order to reduce the growing population and maintain control.
9. Today the CSA GNP would be just above that of Bolivia, with the average wage approximately $2,014 per year.
10. The entire United States space program would be located in San Diego.
10. The entire United States space program would be located in San Diego.
If 7 happened there would be no US space program. Almost all of the beginning of the space program were Operation Paper Clip transplants from Germany. Also with a victorious Germany the USSR would like have been decimated leading to no Cold War with Russia. Thus no space race.
Russia decimated in WWI, right? or do you see a German defeat and humiliation leading to WWII?
You must be smoking the same stuff as Folks or just talking out your ass (as usual). The premise has already been written about decades ago by real historians. Their conclusion was that slavery would have died out a few decades after 1865 as it would have no longer been economically viable. News flash for you. “Bidness” always trumps everything else. Even the Mafia knows that.
I like Turtledove’s original idea, which is similar. Not that the South gets automatic weapons (AK-47’s) from futuristic racists from South Africa, but that great leaders like Lee would have moved to end slavery as it was already ultra-expensive and wasteful at the time of the war.
“Guns of the South” was a great read fer sure!!!
I do not like this new history, I do not like it at all. Please bring back the history we learned from Mary Simms Oliphant’s books. The history I learned from my Grandmother who learned if from her mom.
I do not like this new history Will Folks, I do not like it at all.
As little Robert Bentley knee-jerked with SC’s RINOs Haley
and Joe Wilson–trying to savage white history to advance their political
They predestined their gutless selves to the ash-heap of
history–where the ghosts of OTHER cowards joined weeds as their overseers !!!
Will….you’ve outdone yourself….with a huge assist from Joshua Chamberlain.
Chamberlain was one fine example of a “citizen soldier”
I we could be guaranteed that taking down the flag would end all the bitching and moaning that has accompanied it down through the years, I would be for it in an instant. But sadly when it goes there will be something new to gripe about. After all the race pimps have to live too you know.
The flesh of white people will be a constant and hurtful reminder of ancestors who suffered under slavery. Being forced to look upon that white flesh, and be reminded of how it once benefited from slavery and forced on others, cries to make whites change their pigmentation will rise throughout the land. When another nutjob white committs a heinous crime against some Black citizens, there will be no shortage of Will Folks’who will bleat on endlessly, like a bad spoof of Geraldo, until all the whites undergo full body tattooing or whatever pigmentation adjustment technology is available at that time.
“Heritage is not – a hundred years after the fact – raising one of these fallen standards in a desperate bid to reassert some perceived dominance of one race over another.”
Well done, Will. Very well done! Great prose and description of the situation. Cheers!
Fine post. Next time you are at Pawleys, lunch is on me.
Horseshit.Fits don’t give a shit about black folks.Economics baby….clicks!!!
In fairness, Lincoln’s priority was not freeing the slaves.The advent of the cotton gin in the south, threatened the northern economy.Economics baby…cotton!!!
Fits and Abe. Patriots. :)
You hit the nail on the head.
I would like to mention that none of this aggravation and interracial hatred could have been avoided, had there been no reconstruction. But, the South truly was better, in the end. For we have not rebuilt a standing army as Germany did after WWI and their equally punishing reparations, even though we were robbed, humiliated and degraded. Most of us swallowed our bitter pills and even embraced all ’round. Yes, there are still bigots in South Carolina. But they are few and crazy, as we have just dreadfully experienced. Anyway, it’s the wrong damn flag, to begin with (or to end with).
” Yes, there are still bigots in South Carolina. But they are few and
crazy, as we have just dreadfully experienced. Anyway, it’s the wrong
damn flag, to begin with (or to end with).”
I will tell you true, regardless of what hacks might come my way…but SC is no different on the “bigot” scale that any other state in the Union, & regardless of this recent tragedy I can say the overall racial animus is FAR lower than many other states….and I’ve lived in a LOT of place and spent a LOT of time around black people.
Yep. And I believe you. What I really dislike, is the arrogant and equally ignorant commentators on this site. They expound as if they have an edge on morality, judging 18th & 19th century ethics by 21st century standards. One wonders who their teachers have been. Racists? My college students are dating (and marrying) multi-racially, for Christ’s sake! It is a beautiful sight to see.
Even further, the dirty little secret is that all people recognize race to a degree, making them defacto “racists”…but life is much more complicated when it comes to individuals, skin color, & it’s typically associated culture.
No one raised the specter of “hate” when Eddie Murphy comically & truthfully made fun of white people:
In today’s PC society, such dialogue if reversed(and maybe if not by a modern comic!), would be front page news.
This is not to compare to the tragedy that has befallen the victims of last week, but I’m speaking to the racial discussions in the aftermath(flag excluded) in general.
Dang. Just when I was getting really tired of the ignobility of this sight and the vulgar children that post here – you go and write this. Bravo, Sir, Bravo. You may never top this noble essay.
Let’s tear down Mt. Rushmore! Pulverize the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial and topple Monticello!! Monuments and homes of former slave owners should not exist in 2015. Yes WE CAN!!!
What about your ahhhh SNAP card can we bun that one?
Well said and put into such perspective that is lost on so many.
Finally. The obligatory history lesson for the Uninformed. Well said Sir.
Now, will Haley and the General Assembly move or Hood that flag before the President of the United States gets here!?!
hello my name is Will Folks and this is a great opportunity for me to clean up my image on the backs of those 9 who were gunned down. So let me seize this opportunity to be self serving once again. You sir are a true POS and I look forward to seeing you on the streets of Cola.
Well written FITS.
I’ve read the Chamberlin account a numbers of times it is stirring and if only there had been video tapes back then…………….
J.L. Chamberlain – One of the greatest examples of the “citizen soldier”.
Read “The Killer Angels” by in Bosnia and the other Shara books in the desert. I’m going to spend a full week at Gettysburg in the next year or two – I plan on walking “Little Round Top” from top to bottom
But the two things on my bucket list are to visit “The Valley of Tears” in the Golan and Wake Island.
Both places are truly hallowed ground…………….
It is still the wrong flag.
The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is not a SC Battle Flag.
It’s wrong and that flag has become a symbol of many things, including a rally flag for racist hate.
Simply remove that flag and replace it with the correct one. The SC true battle flag. One that is historically correct and has SC Citizen soldiers of all races fighting under it for over 150 years. Now, even in Afghanistan, Iraq, and else where. That flag is the State of SC Flag in the color of RED not Blue. It is known as BIG RED.
Jez, it’s such a simple thing to do. Why hasn’t it been done before???
“South Carolina’s decision to raise the Confederate flag in 1962 was a calculated rebuke of efforts to expand individual liberty to black Americans ”
Do you have any historical reference for that statement? From the accounts that I’ve read it was put there as part of a historical celebration (in April 1961). That said, it’s a battle flag that doesn’t really have anything to do with South Carolina; I won’t miss it.
Never had an issue with removing the flag from the dome. In fact, I supported it being relocated to a monument. I DO object to what is happening now.
A small flag at the monument is in my mind fitting. It is a reminder that those men fought under a different flag in a war between brothers. While revisionists choose to focus on slavery as the “cause” of the war, it was only a part. It is important to note that FOUR states on the union side remained slave states throughout the war, even over six months after the war was over. Had the war actually been primarily about slavery, I doubt the Union would have allowed those states to continue holding slaves throughout the war. We would also have to recognize that South Carolina had threatened to secede over tariffs during the Jackson presidency. In fact, those economic/tariff/ taxation issues had only gotten worse by the 1860’s. This in no way justifies or defends slavery…. it merely underscores that the Union was acting out of ECONOMIC self-interest rather than any moral stand. Lincoln himself stated he would have protected slavery if it would have preserved the Union.
It’s important when dealing with emotional issues that we not allow that emotion to override our thought process. What we do sets precedent, and we must make sure that precedent is universally applicable and acceptable to our philosophy of government.
So we remove the flag from the monument. What next? It was removed from the dome. Will some people now pressure for removal of the monument in its entirety? Then do we remove the black history monument? What comes after that? Elimination of Black History Month because some people are offended and THEIR culture doesn’t have a history month?
What this lunatic did is horrible. I was proud of how the people of South Carolina came together and supported the victims and families. I believed that the mettle of our citizens was shown, and I saw the fact that the shooter had been rejected and alienated by society as proof that our state had moved far beyond the point the mainstream media liked to portray in race relations. To think that the shooter complained that he couldn’t find racist organizations in South Carolina!
In a short time, the media and the political hacks began working overtime to stir up a racial divide. Since our citizens’ response was monolithic (and worthy of respectful note), some wedge had to be found. If you look at the photographs in the media, you see the flag with the dome immediately behind it. This is nothing more than trick photography, use of lens compression and shooting angle to deceive the viewer as to the true location and size of the flag at the monument in relation to the Statehouse. In short, it is the press LYING to us in photos and videos. The press lied to the public to create this mess, and it won’t stop at just the flag.
The current attack on the flag arises from a non-issue. The flag as part of the monument had a certain legitimate and definable historical value AT THAT SITE. The tragedy in Charleston could have fostered even more growth and tolerance on BOTH sides…. but instead we have a simmering resentment beginning to boil. A cop was fired because he wore a pair of flag boxers in a picture on Facebook, especially at this time. Suspended? Sure, it’s embarrassing to the department to have a guy in boxers on Facebook. Firing him sends a message that politics and pandering have become the norm, and again it causes resentment to boil. At some point, that resentment grows until it again spills over.
We now have academics teaching “white fragility”. Regarding race issues, if you engage in argument, you are protecting your white privilege. If you remain silent, you are protecting your white privilege. If you leave the racial stress, you are protecting white privilege. The ONLY option academics leave is to agree with whatever the other person is saying. Is it valid? Replace “white” with “black”, and I think you’ll agree it is not. That doesn’t stop the people with an agenda. This kind of claptrap nonsense detracts from REAL racism in our society, and impedes efforts for real and meaningful improvements in race relations.
This might be your best work ever. Well put Will
Why does the NAACP and their lackeys GET TO DEFINE THE SOUTHERN CROSS?
TELL THE SC LEGISLATURE NOT TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF CERTAIN PEOPLE.
TAKE BACK OUR FLAG. PLEASE SIGN THIS PEITITION: