School Choice: More Supporting Evidence

MORE ADVANCEMENT, HIGHER INCOMES …  || By FITSNEWS || At this point the abject futility of pumping more tax dollars into South Carolina’s failed government-run education system should be abundantly clear to everyone.  In fact, it is abundantly clear to everyone.  It’s no longer just the far right limited government advocates…


|| By FITSNEWS || At this point the abject futility of pumping more tax dollars into South Carolina’s failed government-run education system should be abundantly clear to everyone.  In fact, it is abundantly clear to everyone.  It’s no longer just the far right limited government advocates making this point … even the big government leftists on the S.C. Supreme Court agree.

“Spending fails to provide students with the opportunity to obtain a minimally adequate education,” the court found last fall in a landmark ruling. “Rather, the evidence demonstrates that there is a clear disconnect between spending and results.”

Exactly what we’ve been saying … for years.

So … are state lawmakers (and S.C. governor Nikki Haley) rushing to embrace market-based education reforms?  Um, no.  Don’t be silly.

But there’s fresh evidence out this week indicating that they should.

According to researcher Victor Lavy, school choice “increased a wide range of post-secondary schooling measures” – including attainment and earning potential.

“Two decades after students made their school choice at the end of primary school, treated students are 4.7 percentage points more likely to enroll in postsecondary schooling and to complete almost an additional quarter-year of college schooling, in comparison to students in the control group,” Levy wrote.  “These gains reflect a 15 percent increase relative to pre-program averages, and they are similar to the program-induced gains in high school matriculation outcomes.”

Levy also estimated “an increase of 5–7 percentage points in average annual earnings among treated students at ages 28–30 relative to the respective control-group average.”  This he attributed to previously documented increases in “high school academic outcomes” among choice students – and the enhanced attainment.

Bottom line?  Market-based reforms in education improve academic performance, attainment and income levels.

Everything the government-run system has tried – and failed – to achieve.

We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again: This stuff isn’t rocket science.

School choice works.  In fact it’s working here, to the extent the establishment has allowed it.


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Liberalprof April 4, 2015 at 4:16 pm

Why don’t they simplify the square root and pull 4 out, leaving 2t ?

FastEddy23 April 4, 2015 at 4:36 pm

Could you translate that into common core math fur us?

(And how do you know that the domain isn’t greater than 1 to 2?)

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 5:19 pm

No, he likely can’t because he didn’t know the answer in the first place, has nothing to do with Common Core.

FastEddy23 April 4, 2015 at 7:21 pm

Nothing to do with common core? My point.

shifty henry April 4, 2015 at 10:08 pm


There is a fine line between a NUMERATOR and a DENOMINATOR.

A biologist, a physicist, and a mathematician were sitting in a street cafe watching the crowd. Across the street they saw a man and a woman entering a building. Ten minutes they reappeared together with a third person. They have multiplied, said the biologist. Oh no, an error in measurement, the physicist said. If exactly one person enters the building now, it will be empty again, the mathematician concluded.

Q: What is the difference between an introverted and an extroverted mathematician?
A: An introverted mathematician looks at his shoes while talking to you. An extroverted mathematician looks at your shoes.

Casual sex is like math: Add the bed, subtract the clothes, divide the legs, and hope you don’t multiply.

The fattest knight at King Arthur’s round table was
Sir Cumference. He acquired his size from too much pi.

Q: What do you call an excited square?
A: An erectangle.

Q: Why is the obtuse triangle always upset?
A: Because it is never right.

Q: What does a three dimensional square have on its genitals?
A: A cubic hair.

Q: Why was 6 afraid of 7?
A: Because 7, 8, 9.

2000 pounds of dumplings roughly equals won ton.

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 4:09 pm

“Q: Why is the obtuse triangle always upset?
A: Because it is never right.”

That was “acute” joke. NOT!!!

shifty henry April 5, 2015 at 5:01 pm

Can you explain the last part of this one to me — because I just don’t get it

A biologist, a physicist, and a mathematician ……. .” If exactly one
person enters the building now, it will be empty again, the mathematician concluded.” —- ?????

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 5:12 pm

The Mathematician entering is (+), exit is (-).
+2-3=-1, now -1+1=0. 0 is empty. Not that funny.
With the physicist, i guess everything is “relative”.

Tazmaniac April 6, 2015 at 5:49 pm

Good ones, as always! I remember in 9th grade Algebra an Erkel type Black kid asking our Brazillion year old teacher if he had heard about the constipated Mathematician. Upon Mr. Old Guy’s reply of no, Gilbert said “He got a pencil and worked the problem out”! Unfortunately, being a public school, only a handful knew what constipated meant so the horse laughing ones were easy targets for his rage. Til the day I die, I’ll never forget that silly joke.

shifty henry April 6, 2015 at 6:13 pm

Taz, glad you enjoyed them and I hope some of you folks share with kids. I wasn’t feeling well that night and to boost my spirits I just put a dump truck load of funnies on you guys! The main article, however, is over my head.
At Christmas the subject of math came up with my kids (now adults) and I told them that although my grades at Dreher were solid A’s in algebra, geometry, trigonometry, (any others?) I didn’t understand a damn bit of it. I had at that time a photographic memory, and also tutored a now well-known and respected person in Columbia. I think (sometimes) that I helped him to his current success.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 6:33 pm

That is interesting, I too have a photographic memory – everything is stored in images. I take a picture, I remember the image, a holistic way of thinking, but not so much the details.

What you describe might have an Eidetic Memory?

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 6:08 pm

LOLOLOL – even I can understand that kind of Math ;>)

shifty henry April 4, 2015 at 10:35 pm

President Bush’s morning security briefing is wrapping up. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is concluding his part and says, “Finally, three Brazilian soldiers were killed yesterday near Baghdad.”

“OH MY GOD!” shrieks Bush, and he buries his head in his hands for a seemingly interminable 30 seconds. Stunned at the unexpected display of emotion, the President’s staff sits speechless, not sure how to react.

Finally, Bush looks up and asks Rumsfeld, “How many is a brazillion?”

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 4:00 pm

I might use that one sometime, but I’ll change the names.;-)

shifty henry April 5, 2015 at 4:56 pm

Although I never make fun of Dubya, this one particular joke just seems to be so…. him!

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 5:18 pm

Judith Miller is wading against the current about Bush.

Bible Thumper April 4, 2015 at 8:39 pm

After you pull out the 4 reduce the fraction. 4/8 to 1/2 then if your professor doesn’t mind irrational denominators (they are getting more tolerant) you could reduce it further by dividing numerator and denominator by the square root of 2. Now since this is a complex fraction (more than one fraction symbol) and the 2 is under 2 fraction lines, it can be put on top of the upper one and the lower fraction line can be eliminated. Now the expression fully reduced and simplified with only t for the divisor.

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 5:18 pm

The right will argue that Common Core is crap without knowing a damn thing about it (including those teachers of decades). The left thinks they love it, easier, right? Fair? Well, lemme tell you friend, Common Core is NOT easier, it is NOT the least common denominator. Your Democrats friends just fucked you out of a degree, while our Republican friends are arguing it is too weak? Read between the lines, study it for yourself.

Only when your own homework will you understand. There are things about Common Core I can’t stand, but there is far more about it that makes it easier to teach/learn v. the whatever politics you might want to add. I guess it might depend on curriculum and assessment testing.

FastEddy23 April 4, 2015 at 7:18 pm

Multiple methods of getting an answer is not the issue w/common core. The issue is a fed/state/union/g’ment teacher mandate that excludes the older methods.

Has anyone actually tried to learn what those mandates are and how they are supposed to work?

I say teach both and see which works best for that individual student, but don’t insist that every student do it the more difficult way.

This debate about which is best has been going on for centuries, at least as far back as the Newton verses Libnez notations for calculus … (Libnez won, but interested mathematicians still try to learn both.)

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 11:51 pm

I have no issue with trying both to see what works for the individual – the problem rests with the assessment testing. I am afraid not to teach common core, because without a home school association, where your kids can still take the old assessments, then if they are taught differently, I am not sure how they will score on the assessment tests. I am concerned how mine will test in 3rd grade. That is one of the reasons I have chosen K12 as a source of curriculum (books, web based interface, daily plans, daily attendance reporting, progress reporting and more).

I am also not sure how long I am going to home school, so I feel my child needs an education that is somewhat consistent with what is being taught in the schools.

I am saving the link above – looks interesting. Thanks.

Guest April 5, 2015 at 9:57 am

My son at Clemson turned me on to the Khan Academy resource – the instructor(s) walk you through step by step through almost any type of problem. Very useful resource for students – explains better than most teachers.

Bible Thumper April 4, 2015 at 7:57 pm

The fact that parents don’t understand Common Core, is one of the main reasons I oppose it. It is just another reason for parents to become alienated from involvement with their kids education.

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 11:29 pm

That is a good argument, but my response is – get educated about it. Parents are only alienated by lack of involvement.

Change is always frightening, but when you are already at the bottom, there is no where to go but up. I spoke with a teacher who taught it in Florida, the results were amazing. Kids are learning to read earlier than any time in the past.

I can understand how it may be difficult for parents who have children in High School, but over time, the gap will close.

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 5:32 pm

I absolutely agree, that free markets/school choice work. I would not want to cut out public school, afterall my children will work with those in public school and my own have or will attend. Having said, all that Bs that no one cares about, so that there isn’t some BS spewed back on discrimination, and so on and so on. Let me just say – I favor equal education for EVERY one. My choice isn’t yours and vice versa, so now that we have addressed that.

Why the hell those who would benefit most from school choice fight it is beyond me? What? You want to keep your kids dumb? Afraid they might actually benefit from scholarships or a free market education?

I know everyone thinks it is all about that 1% you want to punish, but do you realize how sad we are that you are too dumb to take advantage of a system the 1% is willing to contribute to? No, you are too worried they might get a deduction. Do you really think the 1% gives a shit about that puny deduction? It is nothing more than a simple measure to get people to contribute until the program for scholarships takes off.

I have fought long and hard for school choice, I benefit none. If you are too damn dumb to realize the benefits, that you might actually get some money from that 1% you hate so much, to help your children. Why should I continue to fight for you?

Political Reality April 4, 2015 at 6:15 pm

Actually,the biggest opponents of such a program will be Republican voters in suburban areas whose public schools are doing fine and are going to see School “choice” as a subtle attack upon their schools.

Accordingly ,school “choice” programs will,for the foreseeable future,be only of any significance in niche type situations(special needs,etc),but as for a mass move toward it in the near future?

It is not politically feasible and is not going to happen.

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 11:25 pm

Every Republican I have known supports school choice, many of them don’t even have children in school.

Yes, it is niche type situations in many cases, like special needs or underprivileged, but every time School Choice is mentioned all I hear is is the left complaining that the right is trying to destroy public schools.
Even if it only helps those in special need situations right now and it could be expanded later to address more special needs, it makes no sense to me why people oppose it.

It is politically feasible, but it is not likely to happen. It fails year after year. Though we do have limited school choice in SC.

GrandTango April 6, 2015 at 8:22 am

Republicans HAVE NO Problem with choice Dumb@$$…It’s Democrat Administrators who HATE losing control of children, because that means their GREEDY @$$#$ may miss out on the dollar that follows the student…even if the liberals are Failing that student to Obamic proportions…

truthmonger April 6, 2015 at 7:10 am

Wow. Ever thought about not LYING so much???

GrandTango April 6, 2015 at 8:21 am

Liberals HATE truth…and you live in mortal fear that your GREED and control will be interrupted by the people who EARN what you so corruptly STEAL from them…you lazy, stupid @$$hole liberal.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:30 am

Truthmonger, I would rather die an honest sinner than a lying hypocrite. You show me where I lied. These are my opinions and I stand behind them. Year after year some form of school choice is introduced and year after year it fails or is watered down the point we can barely recognize it.

The scholarships everyone is so worried about the tax credits that the so called 1% might contribute and get to write off their taxes. It’s the most ridiculous argument I have heard. Let me ask you a question, why would someone essentially loan money with a zero percent interest? There are plenty of ways to invest money and actually make money. The reason they keep trying to put the scholarship fund in place is to get money for the program to take off, without a burden on the state budget.

Then let’s look at what was proposed a couple years ago, a deduction of something like 2k, when the education costs an average of 12K+ per year, for those who want to homeschool.

You show me the lies. Or do you want to cover up the truth?

Jack April 6, 2015 at 10:05 am

How can you claim to have been a supporter of school choice when you don’t even understand what the proposals have been. There is absolutely no plan whereby the so called 1% will contribute anything, for anyone to take advantage of. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You are either lying or dumb. As for hating the 1%, more right wing BS. No one hates the 1% they just don’t think they should be asked to help pay the cost of educating their children.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:22 am

It is argued repeatedly that only the 1% will benefit, which is total crap. The 1% would not even be able to take advantage of any deduction. They can’t even deduct it on federal taxes. The scholarship program, they cannot influence who gets the money, but get a tax credit the FOLLOWING year.

Maybe you don’t know what you are talking about?

Jack April 6, 2015 at 10:36 am

I know exactly what I am talking about. And as I suspected you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You have mixed two programs. The first is a program that would offer a tax credit to persons who make a contribution to a charitable organization that will provide scholarships to certain students. That program is totally stupid. If the state wants to provide scholarships for private school, it should do so directly, so that the taxpayer has input into where their money is being expended. Under that program A contributes $1000 to organization B, and gets $1000 of his taxes. The taxpayer is making the contribution, not A. All A is doing is taking charge of where the government spends its money.

The other proposal was a voucher/tax credit for private school. This will almost exclusively benefit people who are already in private school. The Voucher was not enough to allow the poor to get out of public school, and there were no schools to take them if it was. Second the credit is the worst of all. The poor cannot benefit from the credit at all. This would go exclusively to the wealthiest people who, again already have their kids in private school. How can a poor person benefit from a tax credit?

If you are going to pretend to give a crap about improving the education of kids in public school, which you don’t, at least know what you are talking about.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:48 am

It is all “school choice” initiatives that have at one time been proposed and failed.

The taxpayer credit you are talking about, they reason the state doesn’t do it directly IMO, it won’t pass. They don’t have the budget for it, so they can offer a tax credit, which basically an interest free loan from the taxpayer for a year.

I disagree with you on the latter, the tax “deduction” for private/home school. In many cases, it will benefit the poor and the middle class the most. Those who are sending their children to 14k a year schools are not going to be eligible to deduct anything. Your argument that it goes to the wealthiest is flat out wrong. Define what you consider wealthy?

I wish the voucher program was more, but it will never be more if we sit here debating that it isn’t enough. It is enough for “some” and could be expanded later. Some is better than nothing.

Jack April 6, 2015 at 11:00 am

Please stop! You don’t know what you are talking about. A tax credit is not a loan for a year. The state budget has nothing to do with it. It cost the state the exact same amount of money either way. Giving Mr. A a tax credit or giving Child A a scholarship, cost the exact same thing. Both affect the budget the exact same way

If I owe $1000 to the government, and I give $1000 to charity A and get a $1000 tax credit. I have contributed absolutely zero to charity. I have the same thing I had before the state is $1000 poorer and the charity is $1000 richer. You should not be home schooling if you cannot understand simple math.

Finally you obviously do not understand the difference between a tax credit and a tax deduction.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:03 am

They cannot take advantage of a tax credit or deduction until they file taxes, which is likely going to be a year since we are in April right now. Yes, it affects the budget – NEXT years budget.

Jack, you just want to argue. I know exactly what a tax credit v. deduction is. Even if I sent you my resume, you would still argue. I can pull IRS regulations and you will argue.

However, you have not answered my question. What do you consider wealthy? I mean we have the 1%, the 99% and now the 50%. What is your definition?

Jack April 6, 2015 at 11:16 am

I am going to stop, because you are now just making stuff up. You obviously are clueless as to how these programs work. You are clueless as to the effect on the state budget, and you never once asked me what I consider wealthy, which just happens to have absolutely nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

By any earning measure I fall in the top 3% by income in SC. So obviously I do not hate high earners. The point is none of these programs are designed to improve the education of the average child in SC. They are designed to heavily benefit people who already have kids in private school and maybe throw a few bones to a few kids in public school. That is not a proper or efficient use of state money. Those programs target getting money to high income earners. We need to fix the public schools,

If we want to compete in the world we need the best public schools in the world. We need to make our public schools better than SC’s worst in the nation Private Schools. This will not do it. This will not help.. And, No, helping a few public school kids get into a private school is not improvement, when helping a few allows us to ignore the rest. Which is exactly what all these programs are designed to do.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:25 am

In case you haven’t noticed, they are “fixing” the public schools by shutting down all the small schools, in favor of larger school that is supposed to cut overhead.

So you are saying that tax credits don’t affect the state budget? You must really smart! Even by your own admission you are saying the same thing, but mincing words, “the state is $1000 poorer and the charity is $1000 richer”

Forget the scholarship program, which based on what I have read is for special needs, what about vouchers? What about a system where the $ follow the students? Or should we continue to build these mob rule schools, pay excessive salaries to the administrators, hire additional security and all the while education takes a back seat to politics. How is that working for you?

Jack April 6, 2015 at 11:39 am

I did not say tax credits do not affect the budget, I said the exact opposite. I said tax credits for scholarships allow private citizens to direct state money to the organization of their choice at no cost to them, while claiming they made a contribution. It is stupid for the state to do this. It is not a proper use of taxpayer dollars. If you can’t read or do math, you really should not be home schooling.

And its working better than doing nothing, which is what the voucher/credit crowd is really proposing. What they are really saying is, let us abandon public education. We do not want to participate.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:49 am

It allows private citizens to direct how they wish to spend THEIR money.

I detest arguing with liberals, because you always revert to attacks, so I typically start off really aggressive, knowing full well that is where it’s going to end.

I am agnostic, so it isn’t my religious beliefs that lead me to believe in a free market education v. government run.

I read the article you posted on BT’s thread, did you actually look at any of the research that article cited? Let me give a sample of what YOU posted, only I looked at the sources.

“This is not a federal issue. Schooling is and should remain primarily a local responsibility. Support for free choice of schools has been growing rapidly and cannot be held back indefinitely by the vested interests of the unions and educational bureaucracy. I sense that we are on the verge of a breakthrough in one state or another, which will then sweep like a wildfire through the rest of the country as it demonstrates its effectiveness.”


Jack April 6, 2015 at 12:05 pm

Thank you for admitting you are biased and your opinions are typical right wing BS. Cato, Rich, Koch, Fox, etc, etc. are bound and determined to find a state that will run their BS plan to re-segregate the schools and provide a high quality education for those who can afford it and factory worker/farmhand education for those who cannot. They want to return America to a class structure reminiscent of the early 20th century.

If we ignore the success of the rest of the world, as they fight to have the best “public” education for all of their people we will become irrelevant. We will become the new third world. Which will actually benefit some people.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 12:08 pm

Have you looked at Korea, who ranks number globally last I checked and how their education system works? Let me see if I can find a resource for you.

No, you have pegged wrong, I am right on some issues, but I get most of my news reading and I don’t follow fox. I am more of an Independent thinker. Right on some issues, but a social moderate almost gone liberal.

Let me see I can find the link I read about schools in Korea, parents typically spend about $8,000 out of pocket. Many private schools. But let me find the link lest I misspeak.

It is also noteworthy that of all those countries who outperform US are significantly smaller than US. Japan ranks #2 and is about the size of CA.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:51 am

and here: “Vouchers are not an end in themselves; they are a means to make a transition from a government to a market system. The deterioration of our school system and the stratification arising out of the new industrial revolution have made privatization of education far more urgent and important than it was 40 years ago.”

Jack April 6, 2015 at 12:09 pm

You are right Vouchers are not an end in themselves. Their goal is to get state money in the hands of people who have abandoned public education. Privatized education will mean less expensive education for the wealthy and connected and less education for the average family.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 12:15 pm

Are you wearing you tin foil hat? This isn’t some great conspiracy to destroy education.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 12:19 pm

Here is some information about South Korea:

“The world may look to South Korea as a model for education — its students rank among the best on international education tests — but the system’s dark side casts a long shadow. Dominated by Tiger Moms, cram schools and highly authoritarian teachers, South Korean education produces ranks of overachieving students who pay a stiff price in health and happiness. The entire program amounts to child abuse. It should be reformed and restructured without delay.”


Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 12:20 pm

“In South Korea, where the government believes “education obsession” is damaging society, family expenditure on education has helped push household debt to record levels.”


Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:50 am

To address “If you are going to pretend to give a crap about improving the education of kids in public school, which you don’t, at least know what you are talking about.”

I give a care, because my kids are going to work with these people. They are going to be the future of SC.

You just prefer to keep them dumb out of spite. You are so afraid that the “wealthy” might benefit in some way or get some tax deduction that you can’t see the forest for the trees.

GrandTango April 6, 2015 at 8:19 am

Quick answer: Public schools have become as socialistic as the Democrat-controlled society.

As it is: Smart, usually White kids score Good grades and test scores, because working, two-parent households promote success of their children. The Democrat-voting parents, and school administrators RIDE off the hard work and accomplishment of the students and families that the Democrats’, the Obamas’ and the Clintons’ hate.

Just like in society. Hardworking Americans BUILD, only to hear Obama tell you HE and the Government BUILT it…while he robs you blind, sitting on his LAZY Liberal @$$…

But sooner or later there are too many Lazy-@$$#d stupid TAKERS…and the CONTRUTORS (including good students) get control – by default. Then we BUILD it again to something worth having…and the Democrats TAKE it…and run it down, as we’ve seen w/ the Obama Administration.

Pineapple Twist April 4, 2015 at 5:39 pm

A really sassy friend of mine wrote this article, hope you enjoy it:


anonymous April 4, 2015 at 10:23 pm

I am a teacher in the corridor of shame. None of this crap applies to us. Until somebody gets rid of the Jim Clyburn line of thinking that encourages a high percentage of the money in a school district be channeled to black SCSU educated “consultants” and “administrators,” then these schools are going further down the toilet. Those two FBI agents that were supposed to be in Jasper County have disappeared with no public reports, but their golf handicaps both went down. Bill Nettles and the Democrats were not about to let the leaders of their voter base be indicted.

Jasper, Allendale and Hampton #2 are a joke. NO discipline, NO leadership interested in anything but retirement. No parents or students interested in anything, but getting a hand out. Walk through Allendale Fairfax High School and tell me ANY parent would “choose” that school.

Until the politicians quit protecting their own operatives and paying them off, NOTHING is going to change.

Come sit in my classroom for a day – or even one period.

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 9:39 am

What you say is DISGUSTING to the Democrat Party and the education power structure…


We KNOW who, and what, the disease is…. ALL South Carolinians and all of America…MUST Stand up to it…and FIGHT them until we have beaten them to a greasy pulp…There is no other answer…

The Democrat Party of 2015 is as dangerous as the Plantation Slave-owner, Hitler, Kruschev and Khomeini….

FIGHT the war against these Hideous and despicable people…or we’ll suffer more tremendous damage to our nation….Enough is enough…

Deo Vindice SC April 5, 2015 at 11:22 am

More wars, eh Pub ?

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 12:05 pm

War on Dumb@$$#$ who are ruining the chances for poor children… FAILED liberal…

Slartibartfast April 5, 2015 at 11:37 am

I concur wholeheartedly. And, when one adds how far Clyburn has fallen from the tree of true civil rights advocates, it makes the entire scenario even more loathsome.

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 9:40 am

NCAA history being made…and FITS got his head buried up his ……

Typical punch-drunk left-type Liberal-Tarian….

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 12:09 pm

CRICKETS…you KNOW it’s BAD news for liberals…when FITS is scared $#!tl#$$…

Just when you were running your WAR against Whitey….LMAO…

tomstickler April 5, 2015 at 10:53 am Reply
GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 12:46 pm

The State is a LEFTWING propaganda RAG…You’ve had education for most of FIFTY YEARS…and you just F*#k it up more each year you control it…

Sit down and STFU…Liberal…you’re a Dumb@$$…and a failure…

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 1:54 pm

This is exactly why all public school funding should be through vouchers. Vouchers are more accountable to the parents. Your linked article represents another failure of the public school system.

nitrat April 5, 2015 at 11:54 am

Yes, Christian madrassa’s are exactly what we need to support with our tax dollars.
That will make us just like Saudi Arabia.

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 4:16 pm

For you and Obama…it’s either Sharia…or nothing…right???

truthmonger April 6, 2015 at 7:14 am

It should be “madrassas”. Plural, not possessive.

nitrat April 6, 2015 at 8:33 am

thanks. I know better.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:42 am

I do agree that we need more private schools that are not based on religion. Even when you home school, every home school association I am familiar with is somewhat religious in nature. Whose fault is that?

Maybe if those who are more liberal got together and formed their own association and/or private schools, that wouldn’t be the case. No, you are just to lazy and want the government to fix all your problems.

Bible Thumper April 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm


 A disparity between achievement gaps in private and public schools can be seen using a U.S. Department of Education database to compute the average National Assessment of Educational Progress test score differences between black students and white students in both public and private schools.
NAEP Achievement Differences for Public and Private Schools

The table on White/Black NAEP Achievement Differences for Public and Private Schools above, shows a sizeable achievement gap between black and white fourth-graders in both public and private schools. However, the private-sector achievement gap is narrower in the 12th grade than the fourth grade for all of the core NAEP subjects. Public schools, on the other hand, see a larger gap in both writing and mathematics at the 12th-grade level than at the fourth. Averaged across subjects, the public school racial achievement gap is virtually unchanged between fourth and 12th grades, while the gap in private schools is an average of 27.5 percentage points smaller in the 12th grade than the fourth.

Blacks enter 4th grade of both public and private schools with similar achievement gaps. In 12th grade the private schools gap is much smaller than public schools. It is interesting this that reduction didn’t come at the expense of white students.

The achievement gap closes faster in private schools not because white private school students lose ground with respect to white public school students as they move to higher grades, but because black private school students learn at a substantially higher rate than black public school students.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:39 am

Bingo! “The achievement gap closes faster in private schools not because white private school students lose ground with respect to white public school students as they move to higher grades, but because black private school students learn at a substantially higher rate than black public school students.”

Jack April 6, 2015 at 10:19 am

This is crap. The private school gap is narrower, because the black children in private schools come from more affluent educated black parents. When are you people going to stop making crap up. You find a statistic you like and then present it as supporting things it does not support. Have you no shame. Public schools are not racist. Most Private schools in this state were started and continue to exist for racist reasons. They are white flight academies.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:31 am

Jack you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You don’t like the voucher programs, you don’t like the scholarship programs, you don’t want to do anything to lift the poor up, yet here come back saying the reason is….blah blah blah.

Maybe some of those black children who come from less affluent families could afford to go to better schools?

While you sit her bitch moan and complain that you don’t want to “pay” for anything for the 1% – please look at the numbers. Who is paying who?

Bible Thumper April 6, 2015 at 11:14 am

“When are you people going to stop making crap up.”
I gave a link for my “crap”, yet “You find a statistic you like and then present it as supporting things it does not support. Have you no shame. “ Where is your support of the claim that black private school students were children of more affluent educated parents. The fact that they entered the private school with the same achievement gap is evidence against that.
You are determined to ignore any evidence that counters your preconceived beliefs.

Jack April 6, 2015 at 11:30 am

This is meaningful, information from a non-profit organization studying vouchers for New Jersey.


All of your evidence is anecdotal. There are no scientific studies to back up anything you say. There is certainly zero evidence the private white flight academies of SC will welcome large numbers of minorities. I think in fact all of the real evidence it to the contrary.

We need the best public schools in the world. That is what the countries who are kicking our ass are doing. If we go the route of basing the quality of our schools on who is what race, who iw what religion and who has the most money, we will continue to fail.

Bible Thumper April 6, 2015 at 11:40 am

Man are you hard headed.
My data was base on the US Dept. of Education’s own statistics. Before I even look at “Save our schools” link, I’m already familiar with the organization. They are supported primarily by public school teachers unions. It is a thinly veiled “parents organization”. Ha!

Jack April 6, 2015 at 11:54 am

You simply refuse to deal with reality. You believe there is a way to design a “help poor kids get into a private school plan” that will improve education for everyone. Even if If there is such a program, there is no support in SC for it. Because the parents of private school children would have to be prepared for their children to compete for space in the school they are in without the use of family connections and money. All of the programs proposed are designed to help people who have children in Private School get money. There is zero concern in any of the proposed programs for poor kids or even middle income kids. In SC it is all about getting money to people who have abandoned public education.

We need the best public schools in the world. That is the way this nation, and this state will remain relevant. If we go your route we will fail and slip into oblivion as the children of Asians, Europeans, Canadians, Australians, etc, continue to educate all of there children

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:58 am

LOL! Hard headed might be an understatement.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 12:52 pm

So are you saying they are lying? Are you saying the information they provide is made up?. Do you have any evidence of that, or is this just part of standard procedure of trying to discredit information that does not support your argument? Because it seems to me, they are providing a lot more specific information than you are. Information that can be checked.

Bible Thumper April 6, 2015 at 1:29 pm

I’m saying they only present data that favors their preconceived positions. They present it in a skewed biased way. They are an advocacy organization that opposes private school choice.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 2:42 pm

So its just information to discredit people you do not agree with? You are an advocate for school choice, You would most likely benefit financially from a voucher program. Based on your own criteria, should I not assume that you are presenting information in a skewed biased way? Why should I give them less weight than you? Specifically, what information have you identified that is skewed, untruthful, biased?

You seem to assume that any information that does not support your side is biased or skewed. Facts are what is important. Facts are not biased. For example, they say.

Research, even by voucher supporters, has found that voucher students perform worse or the same as their public school counterparts. In Wisconsin, for example, voucher students began in 2011 taking the same standardized tests as the students attending the public schools. The voucher students have consistently done worse than their public school counterparts.”


A recent study of Wisconsin’s voucher program found “hyper-segregation” of students in choice schools by multiple socio-economic indicators, including race and income level. In Georgia, a state that has a voucher program similar to the ones proposed in New Jersey, a private school student is nearly three times more likely than a public school student to
attend a school segregated by race or ethnicity.”

These is a verifiable fact. Not presented in a biased way.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 2:47 pm

Excuse me, These are verifiable facts, not presented in a biased way.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 2:56 pm

Tom are you talking to yourself again? ;)

Tom April 6, 2015 at 2:57 pm

No I was correcting my last sentence. Please read, if you can.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 3:05 pm

Tom, it was joke to lighten up a very tense conversation. I reply to self too for the same reason. We may not agree, but we don’t have to be assholes about it.

We all have our own strong opinions. I personally favor school choice, but I am fed up with fighting for the underdog that won’t even join in the fight for themselves. I’m just going to join the big sort and say fuck it!

Tom April 6, 2015 at 3:16 pm

Ok, I believe I am fighting for the underdog as well. I am fighting for poor and middle class kids who will never be able to go to a fancy private school, to get the education they deserve, rather than spending money on people who do not need it.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 3:29 pm

I too am fighting to get those poor and middle class kids into a fancy private school, to get the education they need.

Sometimes we have to concede, compromise (there is that dirty word) to get “some” of what we want.

You tell me how to do that? The public schools are failing miserably. SC is at the bottom. There is no where to go but up.

If we want to model education after other countries, even those that are smaller than us, then surely we realize we need better educational opportunities. I am not talking about religious schools, I am talking about schools where the $ follow the students, a competitive market where it is in the educators best interest to find ways to reach those who are slower at learning. Make it fun (as hard as that is). Cultivate an environment where children can learn and are not outcasts based on their home life, learning disabilities, race, preference, etc.

Surely we can co-exist and if enough people would stand up and fight for REAL reform. Then it would happen. As long as we are fighting with each other – the politicians win.

What would change Tom and please do not tell me it is these horrible failing schools. If I were to change one thing about public schools, the schools would all be one A. Then they might succeed, but that isn’t going to happen.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 3:16 pm

“You are an advocate for school choice, You would most likely benefit financially from a voucher program”

I am an advocate for school choice and I will not benefit monetarily from the program – not a snowballs chance in hell, in my lifetime, unless they raise the bar.

Statistics are a funny thing, you can always fudge the numbers, whether left or right. Sometimes we just need to look around us to know that change is necessary.

The difference between hardcore left and center is – the hard left feels those who make a living owe them something and they have the right to use OUR tax dollars however they want. No willingness to compromise, just spend, spend, spend, without a thought about the future.

Yes, some do it out of guilt, they made money too easy? Some believe we live in a world that it benefits us as the US to lift those in poverty up.

I am not a religious person, but I do agree: “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime.” Yes, paraphrasing, but the meaning is still the same.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 3:39 pm

First of all the comment was not directed to you My comment was directed to Bible Thumper.

Second, Its a good thing you are not a religious person, because that quote is not from the bible. I’ll bet you think “God helps those who help themselves.” is also from the Bible. Let me help you out; its not.

Finally the obligatory, “they are taking our money” Typical right wing nut struff. Just like implying a Fake News Network contributor like John Stossel is an unbiased source.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 3:58 pm

So on a public site, only one person can reply to your comment?

Secondly, I stated I am not a religious person, but many do attribute the “fish” to Jesus. Look around you, and they are on many vehicles.

Finally, John Stossel, to the best of my knowledge is libertarian. Thank goodness we did not cross paths several years back when I really gave a shit about religion and your right wing nut jobs.

They might have convinced me not to feed the animals.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 6:17 pm

You are welcome to respond. But the statement that “you are and advocate for school choice” was directed to Bible Thumper and was in response to a statement made by him.
Regarding fish and fishing, the reason Christians use the symbol of the fish has absolutely nothing to do with the Chinese proverb you quoted. Its most likely source was a fortune cookie. For the reason’s Christians use the fish as a symbol, see Matthew 4:19.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:33 pm

No, it has to do with Jesus feeding the multitudes with a fish or two a few crumbs of bread. Christian use the symbol WWJD. I’ll now re-read your passage.

shifty henry April 6, 2015 at 7:03 pm

A man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy boulevard. Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the
crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection. The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming in frustration as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell phone and makeup.

As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up into the face a very serious police officer. The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up. He took her to the police station where she was searched, finger printed, photographed, and placed in a holding cell.

After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back
to the booking desk where the arresting officer was waiting with her personal effects.

He said, “I’m very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing
worse than a Drill Sergeant at him.

I noticed the “WHAT WOULD JESUS DO” bumper sticker, the “CHOOSE LIFE” license plate holder, the “FOLLOW ME TO SUNDAY SCHOOL” bumper sticker, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on
the trunk. Naturally………. I assumed you
had stolen the car!”

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 7:05 pm


shifty henry April 6, 2015 at 7:06 pm

Heh! Heh!

Bible Thumper April 6, 2015 at 7:49 pm

I would like links to your studies. Public schools are segregated too.

In 2011, the four-county Milwaukee region was deemed the most segregated metropolitan area in America. Roughly 90% of the region’s African-American population lived in the city of Milwaukee. In Waukesha County, in contrast, 93% of the residents were white, and only 1.3% were African-American.


Tom April 6, 2015 at 8:00 pm

You just made their point. If Wisconsin children in voucher schools are more likely to be segregated than Wisconsin children in already highly segregated schools (note reference to hyper-segregation), then that supports the position that vouchers result in increased segregation. Even in places where there is no material effort to desegregate schools, and school segregation is already a serious problem, segregation goes up with vouchers. Also note vouchers in Georgia have also resulted in increased segregation.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 8:09 pm

Great point! I try to steer clear of discriminatory topics, because I think we can all co-exist and learn from each other. If not, I have The Big Sort as a back up plan.

I simply am not going to dumb my child down, nor put her in a position that requires that. I am all about getting along, working together and team effort. But if that is out the window, not possible, then I am going to do every thing within my ability to help mine. Others don’t need to care – We will take care of our own.

I want to help, I want to make a difference, but I can’t even lead a horse to water, let alone make it drink.

Tom April 6, 2015 at 12:35 pm

“You are determined to ignore any evidence that counters your preconceived beliefs.”

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me. Why do you never address the fact that there are no scientific studies showing private school vouchers improve the quality of public education in states or countries were vouchers exist. It seems you concentrate on how vouchers helped a few kids, but not on the big picture.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 12:46 pm

I think the video posted earlier, several years ago, John Stossel visited schools and it does show evidence that school choice works.

GrandTango April 5, 2015 at 6:02 pm

(Basket) …Balls like White Elephants: LMAO….Media – FITS – ignoring their GLARING Downfall (but the PEOPLE KNOW what you did)….LMAO…

Check this link out. It defines the Democrat Party: http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/5/8346723/kentuckys-andrew-harrison-on-frank-kaminsky-after-kentuckys-loss-to

jimlewisowb April 5, 2015 at 7:46 pm

Good News: 25% of the women in this country are on medication for mental illness.

Bad News: Means 75% are running around untreated

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:52 am

Bad News: The reason 75% of women are running around untreated, their male counterparts threaten them. They love crazy women!

Good News: 25% broke free and received treatment. :)

truthmonger April 6, 2015 at 7:09 am

Market-based education…. like University of Phoenix? Webster University? Corinthian College? Heh. All that is required to straighten up public education is for parents to stop making unreasonable demands (like million-dollar-plus orchestra pits -Lex-Rich 5; most high school football stadiums; overpaid “athletic directors”) and focus on discipline and learning. Of course, THAT won’t happen….

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:49 am

If it did, your liberals would be screaming. Try again or do you just want to complain? Contact your representatives today and suggest they defund those activities and see who shouts the loudest.

Tunes'n'News April 6, 2015 at 7:44 am

Query: could the difference in outcome be due to parental involvement? Wouldn’t children of parents who care enough to enroll and transport their children to an alternative school be expected to perform substantially better? How does one tease that out of the data? Or does that not suit agendas?

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 9:48 am

Sure it plays a significant role. One that we can’t legislate. What do you propose we craft legislation that requires all parents to “care” and transport them to an “alternative” school?

Why not focus on things we can impact?

Tunes'n'News April 6, 2015 at 11:51 am

Did I say it could be legislated or that legislation is the answer to anything? No. The question I have is the validity of the purported results of the study. Of course kids whose parents care about education do better. Were the results above because of, or assisted by, the choice options presented the parents? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know the answer, but without that, neither do you.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:55 am

Behavior is a difficult thing to measure and even more difficult to get accurate results. I have a tendency to think it is a combination of the two, but likely the larger contributor is the parents.

Bible Thumper April 6, 2015 at 12:23 pm

School choice gives parents power. With power they are more likely to get involved.

shifty henry April 7, 2015 at 1:09 pm

Haw – Haw! Last night I saw where an old b&w movie from the 40’s was put on YouTube by non-other than “Bunny Thumpurr”……

Bible Thumper April 7, 2015 at 6:47 pm

I bet if BT and Bunny Thumpurr got together, we would be like two rabbits.

Centrist View April 6, 2015 at 10:04 am

“Levy wrote. “These gains reflect…”

Levy also wrote,” To address this issue, I examine a school-choice experiment conducted two decades ago in Tel Aviv, Israel.”

Think the editor of this blog could find a two decade study that was conducted in the United States?

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:19 am

Have you ever watched John Stossel “Stupid In America” ????

Jenny Sanford was interviewed. It’s on YouTube.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:32 am

So that you don’t have to look it up – here is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrUBIsFF4fg

Five Dollars April 6, 2015 at 10:17 am

I always thought the disconnect between public school supporters regarding politicians is that, on the surface, supporting school choice doesn’t equal votes.

See, in the small counties, school districts can be one of the largest employers in an area and a politician voting to change that is perceived by many as political suicide.

I agree.

However, aren’t some things more important that voting, such as an educated society? The end result of public or private education should be a new generation of workers, leaders and creators bettered than the previous. Re-elections shouldn’t squander the minds of thousands of children every year because doing something to benefit the end product (educated high school grads entering the work force, military or college) is for the greater good.

Our problem shouldn’t be politics v. children while remaining at the bottom of 50 states but figuring out how to keep well-educated and innovative minds in South Carolina to create jobs or for existing employers to build around them.

But, children don’t vote. Teachers do. I don’t blame them wanting to keep things as is. It’s the devil they know and mortgages don’t pay themselves.

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 10:34 am

Sad, but I mostly agree.

BIN News Editorial Staff April 6, 2015 at 11:32 pm

Hey, sic(k) one. Where is our latest BIN News Editorial Staff post?

Are you afraid to post the truth? That vouchers are a scam because they do nothing but leave those who need help the most even further behind!

Afraid to post links to honest news stories that out the voucher scam fraud? Afraid to let your readers know the recent giant sucking sound was the latest voucher scam fraud being flushed by the Legislature?

Read it here:

And here:

And here:

And here:

And here:

Pineapple Twist April 6, 2015 at 11:33 pm

Propose a solution? I beg you. One that both sides can stomach.


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