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Libertarian Ideology Explored

In case you haven’t noticed, the Republican Party is dead. The fatal wound was administered in 2008 by former president George W. Bush – who capped off a decade of reckless spending growth, entitlement expansion and unnecessary wars with bailouts for billionaires and car companies. Ah, “capitalism.” In back-to-back elections,…

In case you haven’t noticed, the Republican Party is dead. The fatal wound was administered in 2008 by former president George W. Bush – who capped off a decade of reckless spending growth, entitlement expansion and unnecessary wars with bailouts for billionaires and car companies.

Ah, “capitalism.”

In back-to-back elections, the GOP (capably assisted by the liberal mainstream press) found the most fiscally reckless, warmongering, crony capitalist, welfare statist, entitlement-loving, fiat money-printing pro-establishment candidate it could find to go up against Barack Obama.

And both times the GOP lost … including an inexcusable defeat in 2012.

Here’s the GOP’s basic problem: It can bitch and moan and defeat fiscally conservative candidates all it wants, but if it does people like me are never voting for its nominees again.

Seriously … why did Mitt Romney lose? Easy: Because people who believe as I do either voted for someone else or sat on our hands. And if the GOP keeps nominating fiscal liberals, we will continue to vote for someone else (or sit on our hands).

Figure it out, establishment Republicans: You cannot continue to nominate big government liberals and expect us to touch the screen for them.

But who am I talking about when I say “we?” Who are “libertarians?” And what do they believe?

That’s a good question …

I voted for a Libertarian in the most recent presidential election (former GOP governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico) because he aligned with my fiscal beliefs and because (unlike virtually every Republican running for office these days) had a record to match his less government, lower tax ideology. I don’t consider myself a Libertarian. Or a Republican. I vote based on a candidate’s record of taking care of tax dollars. Period.

But what about actual Libertarians (with the big “L”) … what do they believe?

Well, there’s a new study out by the Public Religion Research Institute which delves into the question – first in an effort to identify who the real libertarians are.

According to the group’s findings, only 7 percent of Americans are “consistent libertarians” – although another 15 percent of the country “leans libertarian.” Of these, a whopping 94 percent are white, 68 percent are male and 62 percent are under fifty years of age.

What about their partisan breakdown?

Well, 45 percent call themselves “Republicans” 35 percent call themselves independents, 15 percent identify with another party (including 8 percent who are actual “Libertarians”) and five percent are Democrats.

Hmmmm …

Oh, and before people start throwing terms like “Tea Party” around, it’s worth noting that 61 percent of libertarians do not identify with the Tea Party movement compared to only 39 percent who do. Yet 96 percent of them oppose Obamacare.

Again … hmmmmm.

In other words … all of these labels thrown around by political consultants are meaningless (as I’ve previously opined).

The modus operandi of the Republican Party in recent years has been to continue nominating pro-establishment candidates – knowing that fiscal conservatives would vote for them as the lesser of two evils.

Those days are over … thanks to non-Libertarian people like me. And a new generation of real Libertarians like Alex Thornton.

And maybe people like you …

IN SEARCH OF LIBERTARIANS IN AMERICA (.pdf)

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79 comments

Lincoln would be ashamed November 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm

Of course the burning “L” is a good image for what is the modern Republican Party, but a burning cross would be better.

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Lincoln would be ashamed November 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm

Of course the burning “L” is a good image for what is the modern Republican Party, but a burning cross would be better.

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Torch November 11, 2013 at 3:39 pm

I’m with you. A burning cross would have been better.

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 11, 2013 at 7:14 pm

A big “L” is often used as symbol for “LOSER.”

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Fasces November 12, 2013 at 9:23 am

Anything that would cause shame to the pillager of the South has to be good.

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Frank Pytel November 11, 2013 at 2:55 pm

+1 Great Article.

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MashPotato November 11, 2013 at 4:54 pm

Very interesting data. And I love the porcupine “LBRTY” license plate! On a Jeep Liberty, no less.

The study made no room for the opinion shared by FITS and myself that government shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all. They asked libertarians the same way they ask anyone else: “Are you for or against (this issue)?”. Intellectual libertarians actually give thought to how policies affect peoples’ lives- yes/no questions do us a disservice.

One thing they did right was to distinguish between self-proclaimed libertarians and those who provided consistent libertarian answers on the ideological part of the survey. Many of the self proclaimed libs just know how sexy and cool libertarians are. They’re trying to lay claim to a piece of this swag.

But even among the ideological libertarians, only 71% want to legalize cannabis? That seems a little low to me. Perhaps that’s why we frequently debate amongst ourselves, we have more learning to do.

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Cowboydroid November 11, 2013 at 9:04 pm

The cannabis issue likely stems from older ideological “libertarians” still remembering the government’s extensive propaganda campaign against “marijuana.”

Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

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MashPotato November 11, 2013 at 11:31 pm

Yup. Words matter. That’s why I make a conscious effort to use cannabis instead of marijuana.

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euwe max November 12, 2013 at 4:04 am

you have to make a conscious effort to use cannabis?

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MashPotato November 12, 2013 at 9:53 am

Hah! I have to make a conscious effort not to. My employer looks for THC in my piss at least once a month. I wish they’d redirect that urinalysis money into my salary. I could buy so much weed with it.

Frank Pytel November 12, 2013 at 2:59 am

Thats a huge one for me mash. I dont want legalization. Barbie, jeeps arent legalized. Its personal responsibility. Decriminalization and deregulation. :)

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Roberto November 12, 2013 at 6:49 am

Finally, someone gets it.

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Billy K Mulligan November 11, 2013 at 5:46 pm

Libertarian = RINO, GOP interloper, tin foil hat, etc.

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Cowboydroid November 11, 2013 at 8:58 pm

If by “Republican in Name Only” you mean a libertarian that simply uses the Republican Party to get nominated for office, then yes, there are quite a few of those. Probably because the Republican Party, and the Democrat Party, put up so many electoral obstacles to prevent any competition from other parties, making it virtually impossible to even get on the ballot for office in most states, while making it easy as possible for their own candidates to get on the ballot.

It’s “crony politics” at its worst. Playing games with our electoral system to reduce competition is ten times more evil than a corporation engaging in crony capitalism.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 2:39 pm

Libertarian = Libertarian
Libertarian = NOT Republican in name, thought, word, or deed.
Republican = Abuser of tax payers, War profiteer, Home invader, Fascist, Socialist, and Racist

Democrat = Abuser of tax payers, War profiteer, Home invader, Fascist, Socialist, and Racist

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 11, 2013 at 7:13 pm

For so many of us, our first encounters with the capital “L” cult was in college or late in high school where the kooky element seems to prevail. It puts one off. Personally, I think airline pilots and surgeons and such should have to be licensed, and only after documented good training and rigorous testing. I like pure food laws and safe medicine laws and don’t mind paying a bit in taxes for inspections and evaluations. But, hey, that’s just me.
I wouldn’t voluntarily allow these clueless characters to run the local dog pound, far less the national government.

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Walter Guyll November 11, 2013 at 7:33 pm

One small step toward libertarianism is a willingness to forgo licensing for hair dressers, coffin makers, interior designers and other such occupations protected from competition.

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Mediaeval Guilds November 11, 2013 at 8:43 pm

There is indeed some of that and here in SC it is done mainly through LLR. Some “professions” are so small that this licensing become the basis of an exclusionary guild. You have to apprentice to one of “the chosen” to get the required experience. Not a big deal for, say, an engineer or an MD, as there are plenty of places for being an EIT or an resident intern. But for example, a “soil classifier” or a user of commercial explosives (forget the name), you have to become part of “the family.” Added to this, they get requirements to use them alone stuck into state regulations or agency practices. The soil classifiers have shamelessly intruded into areas that they, for the most part, are not trained or experienced or competent in (e.g., shallow hydrologic conditions around septic tanks or sprayfields) and managed to get excluded those who are so trained and experienced (mainly, agronomists, civil engineers, and hydrogeologists). There is much middle ground in the question of licensing.

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Cowboydroid November 11, 2013 at 9:01 pm

You fundamentally misunderstand libertarianism, or simply never bothered to educate yourself. It’s no surprise you utter such nonsensical and ignorant ideas.

But here’s a newsflash: libertarians also agree that commercial pilots and surgeons should be licensed, and only after documented good training and rigorous testing. They also agree that food quality should be regulated and medicine should be safe for use. They simply disagree that big, centralized government is the most efficient means for providing any of that.

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Frank Pytel November 12, 2013 at 2:51 am

Mostly.

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euwe max November 12, 2013 at 4:06 am

“They come at night…”
“…mostly” – newt

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 12, 2013 at 6:56 pm

“But here’s a newsflash: libertarians also agree that ”
.
Not the ones I heard, and these were different ones in different states, and over a number of years. Libertarianism is rife with kooks.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 7:16 pm

You think Libertarians are rife with kooks? Man have you been to a GOP or DNC convention?

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 12, 2013 at 7:19 pm

Good point.
.
But I try to stay clear of such places.

AFH November 12, 2013 at 7:26 pm

The LP, at least now-a-days, is getting a lot of really on-the-ball people. Hey, it is a third party, so yeah, most of the stalwarts, are REALLY stalwart. But they are quickly turning from the minority kook party into the not-so-minority party party. the Conventions in California are a blast, and when people find out how much fun Libertarians are, the whole minor party thing is over!

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 7:34 pm

You hear what you want to hear, that much is plainly observed from your own words.

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 12, 2013 at 7:42 pm

You read poorly. You seem to ignore the following (below) and then delude words that were not there. But it’s a common-enough dysfunction on the boards; you have lots of company.
“For so many of us, our first encounters with the capital “L” cult was in college or late in high school where the kooky element seems to prevail. It puts one off.”

? November 12, 2013 at 10:05 pm

“You seem to ignore the following (below) and then delude words that were not there.”

He did the same thing to me. I’m not sure if it’s reading comprehension or intentional.

steve m November 13, 2013 at 1:00 am

Sure but then people who are early adapters are often taken for kooks.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 2:46 pm

Nearly all Libertarians agree with you on licensing. People should be certified by experts when they take on tasks of high trust.

Libertarians only suggest that if we have government do it, then we are prone to a single source of failure, and certification will be made based on politics and graft rather than actual skill or peer review. To pretend that Libertarians don’t like professional certifications is so incorrect it borders on slander. Libertarians would like to see MORE certifications instead of only an exclusive, broken and corrupted one.

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Walter Guyll November 11, 2013 at 7:29 pm

It is hard to compare “consistent” Democrats and “consistent” Republicans with libertarians, as the major parties do not have consistent platforms. Each have a laundry list of aims, accreted by historical happenstance and is geared for patronage. Members tend to focus on one or two issues and forgive or ignore the rest.

Libertarian thought is based on a specific political philosophy, calling for limited government. This will never find favor with power brokers as it curtails their currency of choice.

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MashPotato November 11, 2013 at 11:25 pm

Good shit, Walter. I love the last line; do you mind if I plagiarize?

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Walter Guyll November 11, 2013 at 11:37 pm

Not at all and thanks!

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euwe max November 12, 2013 at 4:03 am

They can all go to little l

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Bill November 12, 2013 at 7:09 pm

The words “limited government” are meaningless unless you are willing to say how you would limit government. My experience with Teapublicans is they want government to do what they believe benefits them and nothing more. That is how they would limit government.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 7:12 pm

The Tea Party was once a non-partisan, anti-tax organization. Now it is full of immigrant haters pretending to be anti-tax.

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Walter Guyll November 12, 2013 at 7:47 pm

In the United States, it means a federal government limited to it’s assigned constitutional role.
On the state level it means whatever the local voters want, consistent with the Constitution, although libertarians generally prefer a focus on protecting residents from force or fraud.
On another matter, avoiding labels such as Teapublicans would help create the impression you are interested in genuine dialog.

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Bill November 13, 2013 at 1:41 pm

I have heard the Teapublicans over and over. They do not understand the Constitution, but think they do. Their definition of what is constitutional, is what they like, and what is unconstitutional is what they don’t like. They think you can understand Constitutional law by reading your handy dandy pocket Constitution or listening to Rush, Beck and the Fake News Network. Most lack the education to carry on a meaningful conversation about Constitutional law.

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Thomas November 12, 2013 at 5:28 am

Albert Jay Nock, William F. Buckley Jr, Dwight Eisenhower, Barry M. Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, Mises Institute, Friedrich August von Hayek, Milton Friedman, Christian Right, Conservatives, Tea Party are all names libertarian’s should know. If not they should be considered as Atheist Marxist Anarchists hell bent on being different thus their mixed bag, cafeteria style bovine sewage politics. If you think you are libertarian without a working knowledge of the former, you must be of the latter.

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Terry November 12, 2013 at 9:49 am

What a joke. There is no way Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Regan were Libertarian. There is certainly no way members of the Christian Right are Libertarians. Its pretty obvious you are no Libertarian.

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? November 12, 2013 at 10:06 am

Reagan talked a pretty good libertarian game, “gov’t is the problem”, etc.

But when it came down to action in office “libertarianism” was no where to be seen. He was elected with some libertarian rhetoric, but his time in office produced blown out budgets and expanded government.

He in essence did the exact opposite of what he campaigned.

His era is felt “successful” because the spending party via printed up dough, that juiced the economy on the backs of later generations via debt.

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Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm

Reagan did lift trade restrictions, which contributed to greater economic activity. The economic growth wasn’t due solely to monetary policy.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 2:58 pm

“Not one of us,” is a phrase I associate with fascism more than Libertarian thought. After all, it is primarily useful when you have no reasonable or rational argument for your position. There is no perfect Libertarian. Ronald Regan had a great Libertarian mind writing speeches for him; Goldwater liked the guy; and he sold freedom regularly and well. Eisenhower, for all that he was, also identified and exposed the Military industrial complex.

You may find that if you define people by what they agree with you on more, you will be more influential with them and others. Certainly, if you define people by what you see as imperfect to you, your list of friends and allies will always be very very small, and uninteresting; and no one with an once of self-respect will ever listen to you no matter how important, or sensible your point.

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What? November 12, 2013 at 3:14 pm

“Not one of us,” is a phrase I associate with fascism more than Libertarian thought.”

That might be a personal problem.

For instance, if I’m surrounded by thieves and I desire to be among those that are not thieves, you’d have a tough time convincing me that referring to those that aren’t thieves as “not one of us” makes me a fascist.

In fact, you would get a well deserved derisive laugh directed towards you.

Fascism

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 4:47 pm

I meant to say that only fascists have to sink to the level of using the argument; not that the argument could not be applied. The argument “not one of us” is so general that its application is meaningless. Thus it is very popular for Fascists.

Libertarians can rely on logic and truth rather than ad-hominem. Those who don’t do so and sink to the morally corrupt depths of name-calling as a tactic, usually have personality disorders. Seemingly, their underlying attraction to Libertarianism is that those whom ascribe to it are notably tolerant people… even of fools.

What? November 12, 2013 at 4:54 pm

I think the confusion might be in the difference between classification and “name calling”. While I agree that labels in general are difficult at best and meaningless most of the time, to suggest that apply a label, like “thief” or libertarian for that matter, has its time & place.

I don’t see Terry’s application as “name calling”, but if you do-I suppose you could ask him to clarify whether it was meant as an insult or observation rather than just assuming.

What? November 12, 2013 at 4:55 pm

edit: “to suggest that applying a label,(same), doesn’t have its time & place might be too dramatic.”

AFH November 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm

Where does the authority for classification come from that Terry can state it as fact rather than opinion?

Why would a Libertarian, in any realm, want to apply hard boundaries to mutable and changing aspects like “opinion” and “social outlook”? People are not Libertarian or not Libertarian, their actions can be in line with Libertarian philosophy or not… but to “classify” a person thusly?

To speak of people as static objects that can be classified is an irrational and unfair practice. To classify people according to your personal desires and outlook, then to speak as if your outlook were quantifiable fact, is an authoritarian tactic leveraging fraud. It is name calling.

Therefore, I do not associate people saying “not one of us” as being really that well matured in the philosophy; and frankly I judge it a likely sign that they are “into it” to hurt people more than influence them.

What? November 12, 2013 at 5:22 pm

“Where does the authority for classification come from that Terry can state it as fact rather than opinion?”

There is no authority, it is his opinion, which he is entitled to. You said it was “name calling”. Which is, YOUR OPINION.

“Why would a Libertarian, in any realm, want to apply hard boundaries to mutable and changing aspects like “opinion” and “social outlook”?”

If it is opinion based on relevant evidence, why not? That’s aside from your own claim that libertarians “are notably tolerant people… even of fools.” By the way, would “fools” be considered “name calling” in your world?

Rather than all this supposition, why not just ask him?

AFH November 12, 2013 at 5:38 pm

Before we get into an endless and devolving cycle, let me say that you are correct (my opinion). I am stating opinion (fact).

I was very very very (hyperbolic illustration) clear that I was stating my opinion (clever conflation of opinion and fact). Terry did not offer his opinion as opinion (fact), he offered it expressed in objectively phrased language (factually a fact).

My opinion is (opinion) that this sort of behavior – stating opinion as fact – is commonly found (subjective allows for deviation) in fools and authoritarian personalities (note that I also find a lot of overlap in those two opinion anchored classifications (parenthetical opinion)).

I do not associate Libertarians as authoritarian nor as foolish (opinion). I find (opinion) that the opposite is true, that (opinion continued) most people that self-identify as Libertarian are less inclined to use the word “is” when “seems like” is a better fit.

Roberto November 12, 2013 at 7:01 am

I am Libertarian. When I joined the party, we were required to sign an oath that stated we would not use physical force to achieve political ends. That about says it all. Government is about the use of force to achieve an end.

Yes, some government is necessary. In a civil society, some government is good. Limited government serves as an regulator to provide safety and order. It just seems to me that government in all forms has been allowed to expand beyond what is necessary, beyond what is reasonable, beyond intrusive and into the realm of repressive.

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? November 12, 2013 at 9:21 am

You highlight well the glaring hypocrisy of capital “L” Libertarians.

“When I joined the party, we were required to sign an oath that stated we would not use physical force to achieve political ends. That about says it all. Government is about the use of force to achieve an end.

Yes, some government is necessary. In a civil society, some government is good. Limited government serves as an regulator to provide safety and order.”

So you signed something saying that you wouldn’t use physical force, yet you admit that government is “about the use of force” and say it’s necessary?

Do you even realize the hypocrisy? After you answer, maybe you can also tell us how you think government should be funded.

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Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 12:14 pm

Is it really hypocrisy? Isn’t the goal of (L)ibertarians, upon achieving office, to reduce the power of government? The goal of all libertarians is to reduce the power of government. Some choose to attempt this task by working within the system. Are they really hypocritical? Perhaps their efforts are in vain, as it is impossible to reform government to be smaller, but I don’t see it as hypocritical.

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Bill November 12, 2013 at 1:18 pm

The goal of Teanuts and LIbertarians is to reduce government to the point it only does what they believe benefits them.

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Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 4:12 pm

Because securing liberty and natural rights only benefits a few people?

No, securing liberty and natural rights benefits everyone.

Bill November 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm

I guess that depends on your definition the word “securing” and listing of “natural rights”.

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 5:04 pm

Yes…I suppose it does.

The role of government is to secure rights. Property rights are among the most basic and fundamental of natural rights. A government that grows bigger confiscates more and more property from the people to fund itself, and thus necessarily infringes the People’s property rights more and more. Shrinking government secures people’s property rights.

? November 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm

I notice you didn’t answer my questions, but regardless I will answer yours.

It’s very simple, government is about use of force, correct?

Do you know how hard it is to operate within government without using force?

If you get elected, but opt not to use force the first thing you must do as someone not planning to use force(libertarian, small L), is not take a salary!

How many Libertarians(captial L) are willing to do that? If you don’t, you are using force be getting paid with money confiscated from others.

Also, you can never, NOT ONCE, cast a vote in favor of any bill that uses tax money.

How many Libertarians are ready to do that one?

The hypocrisy of the whole situation is unavoidable.

My suggestion if you are a Libertarian(capital L), is you simply admit you are for government, just smaller amounts then Republicans and obviously Democrats.

Let us not hear about this stupid notion that you “would not use physical force to achieve political ends” and that you taking some stupid oath about it means anything, because clearly it doesn’t.

It means as much as the stupid Republicans taking some stupid “tax pledge” or claiming they are for “limited goverment”.

Once again this show how the Dems are just a little more honest in admitting their commie/socialist ways over the others which might make them the lesser of evils if you are ‘ok’ with voting for evil.

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Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 4:12 pm

I answered your question.

You would really fault a politician seeking to gain office for the sole purpose of reducing the size and extent of government? Sure, it’s not the ideal solution, but it certainly beats a politician who seeks office only to expand the size and scope of government, doesn’t it?

Unfortunately, we don’t know how many (L)ibertarians are willing to not work for a salary, because not many hold office. Ron Paul did refuse his own Congressional salary, though, so it would seem that at least some (l)ibertarians would do as you suggest.

Personally, I don’t vote. But I don’t find it unreasonable to believe that some (L)ibertarians are taking action to reduce the extent of government by working from within the system, even if they believe that government is itself evil. It’s that whole Trojan Horse thing, you know.

? November 12, 2013 at 4:42 pm

“I answered your question.”

No, you didn’t. Tell me how government should be funded.

“You would really fault a politician seeking to gain office for the sole purpose of reducing the size and extent of government?”

If he can’t do so without taking/stealing other people’s money, yes.

“Ron Paul did refuse his own Congressional salary,”

That is incorrect, he refused his pension. He took a paycheck.

“Personally, I don’t vote.”

Why not?

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm

You’re asking me how government should be funded? You realize I’m not the original poster, right? I am not obligated to answer all the questions you asked the original poster just because I decided to address one of your points.

But just to answer your question anyway, I don’t believe government should be funded unless it is voluntary. Which would make it not government, but just another enterprise offering its services on the market.

You are correct about Ron Paul’s salary and pension. I’d also like to highlight the fact that he returned the unused portion of his office budget in 2008, ’09, ’10, and ’11, amounting to $388,000.

I don’t vote because voting is what gives the government consent to govern. I do not wish to express my consent to be governed, so I don’t vote.

? November 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm

“I am not obligated to answer all the questions you asked the original poster just because I decided to address one of your points.”

I never said you were, you claimed you “answered” my questions.

“I don’t vote because voting is what gives the government consent to govern.”

Great, then don’t go throwing your support to people that run either, because then you are a giving them your consent to govern me, aside from the fact that it’s obviously hypocritical for you to do so.

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 7:30 pm

Show me where I threw my support behind them? My position from the beginning of this conversation has been one of implicit support for the (L)ibertarians efforts to reduce the size of government by working within the electoral system. I don’t fault them at all for their efforts. I don’t necessarily agree with their tactics, but they are not the monsters you are making them out to be.

? November 12, 2013 at 7:57 pm

You answered your own initial question in a later sentence:

“My position from the beginning of this conversation has been one of implicit support”

You asked, then answered.

“I don’t necessarily agree with their tactics, but they are not the monsters you are making them out to be.”

If you don’t agree with their tactics, then don’t defend them, like you’ve done above(several times).

I’ve laid out simply & plainly the problem, specifically the inherent impossibly in joining a system of coercion in which they would have to operate without coercion.

Even the “great” Ron Paul took a salary, stolen money, in order to attempt this feat. He was not successful in in reducing government in any way, shape or form. Period.

He might have educated people a small number of people. But he did not accomplish any of the goals you deemed to be worthy of such a candidate…in essence your own criteria is impossible.

Even further, you have shown to have greater restraint than Ron Paul in that you do not implicitly endorse the corrupt system by the act of non-voting and have not chased year upon year of a substantially salary by the stolen wealth of your countrymen.

You seem to want to have your cake yet eat it too.

There are no half measures logically to the proposition of theft. You can not “half steal” something, or steal for a “greater good” and have it not still be theft.

Any attempts to get rid of the mafia by joining the mafia will fail. PERIOD. In the mean time, “playing the game” only gives those in power the perception that you’ve agreed to their rules and implicitly endorses the system. You know this deep down, based on your own actions. It’s the same reason you shouldn’t encourage “Libertarians” to try to out lie the liars or sanctify the system and its shenanigans.

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 8:19 pm

Like I said, I’m not lending explicit support to the cause of Libertarians. I merely empathize with their cause. You’ve confused this empathy for explicit support. I’m not going to go out and call for the demise of the Libertarian Party. For many people, it can serve as a gateway from their statist past, leading them to the realizations that both you and I already share.

You’ve been extremely confrontational and belligerent for reasons that only you know. We share a lot of opinions on politics. There’s no reason to be rude and demeaning. If you want to argue heatedly, there are plenty of other places on the internet where you can find a bootlicking statist to engage.

BTW, Ron Paul educated a great many more than just a “few people.” Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, got their first exposure to libertarianism through Ron Paul.

? November 12, 2013 at 9:06 pm

“You’ve been extremely confrontational and belligerent for reasons that only you know.”

That is your perception.

“Ron Paul educated a great many more than just a “few people.”

Statistically speaking, Libertarians represent a small percentage still to this day. To think otherwise is not within reality.

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 9:31 pm

Yes, your use of language affects the perception of the reader. How astute of you.

Statistically speaking, libertarians were outnumbered a hundred thousand to one just fifty years ago. Now they’re outnumbered maybe a hundred to one. Libertarianism has made tremendous strides the last decade, and Ron Paul is a big reason for that.

? November 12, 2013 at 10:02 pm

You want me to be an ass?

Let’s talk about “astute”:

Astute might be someone who doesn’t try to draw a distinction, like a pussy, between “explicit” and “implicit” support like it matters one iota to those seeing your support none the less.

“Astute” might just be not just spouting the platitudes of libertarianism(big or little L), but instead being able to live them consistently so you don’t look like a jackass to those who are wondering what the hell a “libertarian” of either flavor is.

“Astute” might entail not attributing lame statements to people that were never made in order to demagogue, like ” but they are not the monsters you are making them out to be”, so that you can paint your opponent as some “monster” as you put it.

Not only are you disingenuous in your arguments, but are flaccid.

There, now you are entirely justified in your proclamation that I’ve been ” been extremely confrontational and belligerent”.

So even though the rest of your arguments are weak and disingenuous, at least I was able to make one of your points sound & legitimate.

Cowboydroid November 12, 2013 at 11:34 pm

If this is the way you communicate with human beings outside the internet, it’s probably safe to assume that you don’t have much of a social life. In which case, your vehement defense of your own arguments supporting your own idealized libertarianism are for naught. You aren’t going to win many people over with that kind of hysterical language.

Peace be with you.

? November 13, 2013 at 12:47 am

I only communicate with condescending pricks this way. The ones that feel they can slight people and then puss out and get indignant when it’s thrown back in their face.

I won’t bother with the fake granting of “peace” to you, but I hope you find truth more palatable from those you can verbally beat on when you are unable to do so from those you can’t.

? November 12, 2013 at 10:02 pm

You want me to be an ass?

Let’s talk about “astute”:

Astute might be someone who doesn’t try to draw a distinction, like a pussy, between “explicit” and “implicit” support like it matters one iota to those seeing your support none the less.

“Astute” might just be not just spouting the platitudes of libertarianism(big or little L), but instead being able to live them consistently so you don’t look like a jackass to those who are wondering what the hell a “libertarian” of either flavor is.

“Astute” might entail not attributing lame statements to people that were never made in order to demagogue, like ” but they are not the monsters you are making them out to be”, so that you can paint your opponent as some “monster” as you put it.

Not only are you disingenuous in your arguments, but are flaccid.

There, now you are entirely justified in your proclamation that I’ve been ” been extremely confrontational and belligerent”.

So even though the rest of your arguments are weak and disingenuous, at least I was able to make one of your points sound & legitimate.

9" November 12, 2013 at 8:19 am

The libertarian party is over,too.Run as an independent,and you might have a chance,but nothing’s going to change until the electoral college is abolished.

John Anderson for president.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 3:07 pm

If the definition of a political party were bounded by Republicans or democrats I might agree with you. A political party is defined by people coming together to team up to accomplish a social goal.

With no party, you have no team. “Independent” either means independent of the two power-brokers (Libertarians and supporters of John Anderson), or it is a misnomer for really meaning without friends.

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JRo November 12, 2013 at 12:00 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting Instant Runoff or Ranked Voting allows voters to choose their conscience first and the lesser of two evils second. This would allow third party candidates to gain support without throwing the election to the other dominant party. As seen in Texas, a faux libritarian candidate was fielded to siphon away votes from the conservative candidate. Ranked voting is not suseptable to this political tactic.

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Speight November 12, 2013 at 2:15 pm

And because of libertarian whining temper tantrum, we have been cursed with the most socialist regime in American history. Thank you EVERso.

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? November 12, 2013 at 2:35 pm

Yes, yes, blame less than 10% of the voting population on the problems of 40+ years of overspending by both parties and GOP creep towards socialism itself over the years.

That’s perfectly reasonable.

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AFH November 12, 2013 at 6:15 pm

Um, I think that the more correct thing to say is “thanks to socialists, we have been cursed with the most socialist regime…”

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Soft Sigh from Hell November 12, 2013 at 7:09 pm

Gays, guns, God, evolution, home schooling, Libertarianism and a few other topics (e.g., slavery and “THE War”) seem guaranteed to get a lot of posts on Net boards. The juices begin to flow.

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