SC

SC Lawmakers Took Free Gambling Junkets

Members of South Carolina’s “Republican-controlled” General Assembly – like Gov. Nikki Haley – have gone out of their way to preserve state government’s monopoly on gambling. It’s yet another example of the hypocrisy of the so-called party of “limited government” and “individual liberty.” Of course when it comes to free…

Members of South Carolina’s “Republican-controlled” General Assembly – like Gov. Nikki Haley – have gone out of their way to preserve state government’s monopoly on gambling. It’s yet another example of the hypocrisy of the so-called party of “limited government” and “individual liberty.”

Of course when it comes to free gambling junkets provided by their political connetions, they’ve reportedly been “taking that action.”

“Numerous” South Carolina lawmakers have allegedly been provided with all-expenses-paid  gambling trips in recent years courtesy of MES Junkets, a Charleston, S.C.-based company which provides gambling-themed travel packages. According to documents filed with the S.C. Secretary of State’s office, MES Junkets is owned by Michael E. Stavrinakis, brother of S.C. Rep. Leon Stavrinakis (D-Charleston).

Why does this matter? Well, Michael Stavrinakis is currently a candidate for board of trustees at the Medical University of South Carolina (MUSC) – a position which will be selected by members of the S.C. General Assembly.

In his appearances before lawmakers Stavrinakis has not referenced his gambling junket business, instead referring to himself as a restaurant owner.

Questions about Michael Stavrinakis’ candidacy were first raised this week by Darby L. Gatling, a Charleston, S.C. woman who claims the lawmaker’s brother side-swiped her vehicle during a traffic accident last August. Gatling further claims Leon Stavrinakis – who arrived on the scene of the accident moments later – pressured the local police into absolving his brother of fault in the accident.

During the course of our investigation into those claims, we stumbled upon the travel junket allegations – which were made by a sitting member of the S.C. House of Representatives. This lawmaker identified at least a half dozen of their colleagues alleged to have been provided with the free trips.

We’ve contacted several of the lawmakers alleged to have participated, and each one has flatly denied the reports.

Meanwhile Leon Stavrinakis has hotly disputed the allegation made by his legislative colleague.

“The story is a total and complete fabrication,” Stavrinakis told FITS, referring to his brother as nothing but a travel agent. “First of all he does not pay for people to go – either they pay or the destination pays. There may be one legislator who he booked travel (for) as a travel agent but that person was not in the General Assembly then.”

Perhaps more interestingly, it’s not clear whether there would be any legal prohibition against legislators’ receiving these trips seeing as Michael Stavrinakis is neither a registered lobbyist nor does he employ one. There is, however, a prohibition (S.C. Code of Laws section 8-13-705) against elected officials “receiving anything of value to influence action.”

***

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50 comments

Juan Stavrinakis March 29, 2013 at 9:26 am

You just gave Michael alot of free clicks and money.

Reply
Will Folks aka Sic March 29, 2013 at 11:12 am

Exactly. He should be kissing my ass right about now as opposed to threatening a lawsuit. Plus dumbass ought to recognize that lawmakers HATE this website, meaning we probably just got him elected to the MUSC board.

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 11:15 am

Not that smart Will.

Reply
Juan Stavrinakis March 29, 2013 at 9:26 am

You just gave Michael alot of free clicks and money.

Reply
Will Folks aka Sic March 29, 2013 at 11:12 am

Exactly. He should be kissing my ass right about now as opposed to threatening a lawsuit. Plus dumbass ought to recognize that lawmakers HATE this website, meaning we probably just got him elected to the MUSC board.

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 11:15 am

Not that smart Will.

Reply
Donnie Delhmart March 29, 2013 at 9:27 am

Was looking for some proof in this article. Care to provide any or would you prefer to just make unsubstantiated allegations? Snooze.

Reply
Bubbas Brother March 29, 2013 at 9:27 am

I fail to see why the state having a monopoly on gambling is a problem – if you’re stupid enough to play “scratch and win” (or gamble at all), my kids ought to benefit from your stupidity.

Several years ago I spoke to a group of high school kids about paying for college, as we got to the part about the “Palmetto Life Scholarship” program I offered them a challenge. I suggested that they ought to thank the folks willing to help them go to college by shaking their hands and saying “thank you” but nothing else. The high school has a Zippy Mart just off campus so this group of juniors and seniors decided to take me up on the challenge. Eventually the Zippy Mart called the school and asked the principal to stop the kids from “shaking and thanking” because the confused gamblers couldn’t figure out what was going on and were holding up the customers at the counter…

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 10:36 am

I’ll tell you why. Don’t try and regulate the lives of others under the guise of “morality” or “it’s just not good for SC” when your government decides how one may gamble and putting the competition in jail! Do you really not see an issue with this?
You cant put $20.00 dollars in a poker machine if you choose. SLED as we speak is out looking for poker machines to seize and operators to arrest.

You cant put a 10.00 bet on a basketball game. Leon Lott will hunt you down and paste your picture in the state paper.

But, the lottery is proud to announce it’s new racing “scratch off” for only 5.00 each. Gambling is fine in this state as long as the government can decide which form of gambling is acceptable in their eyes. Are you listening? comprehending? They will let you know how you will be authorized to spend your money!

If anyone wants to see for themselves the impact the lottery has on this state, I challenge you to go to a convenience store near a predominantly black area around 11:00 am. daily. Watch the people standing in line to get their “Pick 3” numbers in before noon.

Watch the scratch off’s being purchased. The sad thing is these people don’t realize they have better odds of being elected governor than they do winning anything.

Paula Harper Bethea, the SC lottery director (who makes 3 times the governors salary btw) is the one who got all this shit stirred back up with the poker industry. It seems the “sheeple” figured out they could drastically improve their odds of actually winning by playing a poker machine. It was found to be much more entertaining than scratching off some card in 30 seconds at 10 bucks a pop.

When the scratch off sales went down, the heat got turned up!

That’s the fucking problem!

Reply
Bubbas Brother March 29, 2013 at 11:08 am

Who cares about the morality of it? Obviously you don’t if you’re advocating legalization. It’s a revenue system that punishes stupid people. If it saves me a tax dollar then great! Anyone who thinks they will get rich playing scratch and win or pick six is an idiot and deserves to be fined, er uhm, taxed, er uhm needs to pay for the privilege of gambling. Why let the Mob have all the fun?

I’ve had a complete shift in my view of taxing stupidity. I have always been anti drug and still am against most illegal drugs, however, I now believe we should legalize marijuana and tax the beejesus out of it like we do that other “mind altering” product alcohol. Driving high – DUI, just like you’d get if you’d finished that “sixer” before heading for the house. Combine that with the death penalty for sale/manufacturing of most other illicit drugs a la Saudi Arabia and poof, no more drug problems and a new source of revenue for the government to abuse.

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 11:28 am

This is where you get confused. I don’t advocate legalization! I advocate the government getting out of our lives and quit shoving shit down our throat!

These self righteous son of a bitches sit in Columbia scheming of how to run our lives while stuffing their pockets with our cash!

You really don’t have an issue with these corrupt bastards picking the winners in a free market?

The lottery is a “good idea” as long as lawmakers decide where the money goes? Who gets to be director, who is appointed to the lottery commission?

They wiped out a BILLION dollar industry and 30K in jobs to enforce their “morality”. Keep in mind this was after county referendums where a majority of counties in SC chose to legalize

That’s the damn problem!

Reply
Bubbas Brother March 29, 2013 at 12:09 pm

Gee you’re getting awfully worked up if you really “…don’t advocate legalization! but do .”…advocate the government getting out of our lives and quit shoving shit down our throat! Really, are you forced to play the lottery? Is there a check point at the border where someone asks if you’re driving to Cherokee to gamble?

My real problem with the “gambling industry” was the tacky little poker machines in every “mom and pop” “Zippy Mart” and the ridiculous mirror covered, gambling dens out on I-20, I-95 and I-85, reminding me of all the ignorant SOBs we have living in this state.

If you think even for a minute that the state got all of the money it should have out of that industry, you’re delusional. I had an acquaintance that ran a place out on Two Notch that had 40 machines out front and 10 “in the back” – they were skimming 20% at a minimum and the machines “in the back” were the “big money machines” so it was likely much more than that.

Why do I support a state lottery – simple, it’s a self induced tax that doesn’t affect me. To date, the lottery has provided almost 3 billion to higher education, offsetting some of the dumb decisions that the State House has made. Is it a perfect system? Hell no! However, when you consider that most “legal gambling states” have skimming problems that are out of control I say let the government run it – it’ll still be screwed up but “the children” will at least get some benefit from it.

Here are a few examples of what I’m talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Breeders%27_Cup_betting_scandal

http://www.fbi.gov/newhaven/press-releases/2012/alleged-organized-crime-associates-among-20-charged-with-operating-illegal-gambling-businesses-in-connecticut

http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/nov/02/busted-illegal-online-gambling-ring-defendants-hav/

Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 12:39 pm

Are you forced to play the Lottery? Yes, if you want to gamble in SC without the threat of jail. Personally I do neither, and have never stepped foot in Cherokee.

So obviously your problem with gambling on a poker machine is more a regulatory issue than morality?

If the state created laws that poker establishments could not be “tacky” you would be ok with it?

Do you honestly believe that people report 100% of their income to the state or IRS? Have you always reported every penny you earned? Do you think the guy at ABC Lawn care reports every penny he is paid in cash? Should the state of SC get in the lawn business? Should they decide for us the proper company to use?

So because the state of SC was inept and unable to figure out how to regulate the industry it should be abolished?

Your picking and choosing winners based on your opinions. You should run for office.

The point is that its not up to you or I to decide right from wrong. Its up to the people. I think its fairly evident what the people want.

Bubbas Brother March 29, 2013 at 1:04 pm

Obviously they don’t or we would have elected people who would make gambling legal, everyone knows the electoral system in this state reflects the will of the people, why right here in Richland County – oh, wait.

I disagree that the majority of the citizens in SC want legalized gambling beyond the system we have now.

Smirks March 29, 2013 at 11:44 am

Having a lottery-only system limits the choice of gambling options and therefore limits the amount spent on gambling within the state. People who wish to do more than buy lottery tickets or play bingo end up finding shadowy operations in-state or going out of state to gamble their bucks (and then some in unfortunate cases).

I don’t think it is a monopoly per-se, nor do I think that legislators are afraid to legalize gambling because it’ll take away from lottery money. There’s plenty of people who buy lottery tickets but rarely if ever hit up a casino, and vice versa. Besides, given the right tax structure, the state could rake in even more dough by letting casinos open (except for maybe those built on reservations, but I’m not too sure when it comes to that).

When one can hop to the other Carolina and gamble at the Cherokee casino, or swing on over to a Lexington “sweepstakes” business to play video poker, the only conclusion left is that SC feels morally superior letting these folks piss away their cash where they can’t see it and not take a cut of it. Out of sight, out of our minds if you ask me.

Reply
Bubbas Brother March 29, 2013 at 12:11 pm

I agree with you totally on the “…out of sight out of mind…” assertion.

Reply
Donnie Delhmart March 29, 2013 at 9:27 am

Was looking for some proof in this article. Care to provide any or would you prefer to just make unsubstantiated allegations? Snooze.

Reply
The Colonel (R) March 29, 2013 at 9:27 am

I fail to see why the state having a monopoly on gambling is a problem – if you’re stupid enough to play “scratch and win” (or gamble at all), my kids ought to benefit from your stupidity.

Several years ago I spoke to a group of high school kids about paying for college, as we got to the part about the “Palmetto Life Scholarship” program I offered them a challenge. I suggested that they ought to thank the folks willing to help them go to college by shaking their hands and saying “thank you” but nothing else. The high school has a Zippy Mart just off campus so this group of juniors and seniors decided to take me up on the challenge. Eventually the Zippy Mart called the school and asked the principal to stop the kids from “shaking and thanking” because the confused gamblers couldn’t figure out what was going on and were holding up the customers at the counter…

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 10:36 am

I’ll tell you why. Don’t try and regulate the lives of others under the guise of “morality” or “it’s just not good for SC” when your government decides how one may gamble and putting the competition in jail! Do you really not see an issue with this?
You cant put $20.00 dollars in a poker machine if you choose. SLED as we speak is out looking for poker machines to seize and operators to arrest.

You cant put a 10.00 bet on a basketball game. Leon Lott will hunt you down and paste your picture in the state paper.

But, the lottery is proud to announce it’s new racing “scratch off” for only 5.00 each. Gambling is fine in this state as long as the government can decide which form of gambling is acceptable in their eyes. Are you listening? comprehending? They will let you know how you will be authorized to spend your money!

If anyone wants to see for themselves the impact the lottery has on this state, I challenge you to go to a convenience store near a predominantly black area around 11:00 am. daily. Watch the people standing in line to get their “Pick 3” numbers in before noon.

Watch the scratch off’s being purchased. The sad thing is these people don’t realize they have better odds of being elected governor than they do winning anything.

Paula Harper Bethea, the SC lottery director (who makes 3 times the governors salary btw) is the one who got all this shit stirred back up with the poker industry. It seems the “sheeple” figured out they could drastically improve their odds of actually winning by playing a poker machine. It was found to be much more entertaining than scratching off some card in 30 seconds at 10 bucks a pop.

When the scratch off sales went down, the heat got turned up!

That’s the fucking problem!

Reply
The Colonel (R) March 29, 2013 at 11:08 am

Who cares about the morality of it? Obviously you don’t if you’re advocating legalization. It’s a revenue system that punishes stupid people. If it saves me a tax dollar then great! Anyone who thinks they will get rich playing scratch and win or pick six is an idiot and deserves to be fined, er uhm, taxed, er uhm needs to pay for the privilege of gambling. Why let the Mob have all the fun?

I’ve had a complete shift in my view of taxing stupidity. I have always been anti drug and still am against most illegal drugs, however, I now believe we should legalize marijuana and tax the beejesus out of it like we do that other “mind altering” product alcohol. Driving high – DUI, just like you’d get if you’d finished that “sixer” before heading for the house. Combine that with the death penalty for sale/manufacturing of most other illicit drugs a la Saudi Arabia and poof, no more drug problems and a new source of revenue for the government to abuse.

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 11:28 am

This is where you get confused. I don’t advocate legalization! I advocate the government getting out of our lives and quit shoving shit down our throat!

These self righteous son of a bitches sit in Columbia scheming of how to run our lives while stuffing their pockets with our cash!

You really don’t have an issue with these corrupt bastards picking the winners in a free market?

The lottery is a “good idea” as long as lawmakers decide where the money goes? Who gets to be director, who is appointed to the lottery commission?

They wiped out a BILLION dollar industry and 30K in jobs to enforce their “morality”. Keep in mind this was after county referendums where a majority of counties in SC chose to legalize

That’s the damn problem!

Reply
The Colonel (R) March 29, 2013 at 12:09 pm

Gee you’re getting awfully worked up if you really “…don’t advocate legalization! but do .”…advocate the government getting out of our lives and quit shoving shit down our throat! Really, are you forced to play the lottery? Is there a check point at the border where someone asks if you’re driving to Cherokee to gamble?

My real problem with the “gambling industry” was the tacky little poker machines in every “mom and pop” “Zippy Mart” and the ridiculous mirror covered, gambling dens out on I-20, I-95 and I-85, reminding me of all the ignorant SOBs we have living in this state.

If you think even for a minute that the state got all of the money it should have out of that industry, you’re delusional. I had an acquaintance that ran a place out on Two Notch that had 40 machines out front and 10 “in the back” – they were skimming 20% at a minimum and the machines “in the back” were the “big money machines” so it was likely much more than that.

Why do I support a state lottery – simple, it’s a self induced tax that doesn’t affect me. To date, the lottery has provided almost 3 billion to higher education, offsetting some of the dumb decisions that the State House has made. Is it a perfect system? Hell no! However, when you consider that most “legal gambling states” have skimming problems that are out of control I say let the government run it – it’ll still be screwed up but “the children” will at least get some benefit from it.

Here are a few examples of what I’m talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Breeders%27_Cup_betting_scandal

http://www.fbi.gov/newhaven/press-releases/2012/alleged-organized-crime-associates-among-20-charged-with-operating-illegal-gambling-businesses-in-connecticut

http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/nov/02/busted-illegal-online-gambling-ring-defendants-hav/

Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 12:39 pm

Are you forced to play the Lottery? Yes, if you want to gamble in SC without the threat of jail. Personally I do neither, and have never stepped foot in Cherokee.

So obviously your problem with gambling on a poker machine is more a regulatory issue than morality?

If the state created laws that poker establishments could not be “tacky” you would be ok with it?

Do you honestly believe that people report 100% of their income to the state or IRS? Have you always reported every penny you earned? Do you think the guy at ABC Lawn care reports every penny he is paid in cash? Should the state of SC get in the lawn business? Should they decide for us the proper company to use?

So because the state of SC was inept and unable to figure out how to regulate the industry it should be abolished?

Your picking and choosing winners based on your opinions. You should run for office.

The point is that its not up to you or I to decide right from wrong. Its up to the people. I think its fairly evident what the people want.

The Colonel (R) March 29, 2013 at 1:04 pm

Obviously they don’t or we would have elected people who would make gambling legal, everyone knows the electoral system in this state reflects the will of the people, why right here in Richland County – oh, wait.

I disagree that the majority of the citizens in SC want legalized gambling beyond the system we have now.

Smirks March 29, 2013 at 11:44 am

Having a lottery-only system limits the choice of gambling options and therefore limits the amount spent on gambling within the state. People who wish to do more than buy lottery tickets or play bingo end up finding shadowy operations in-state or going out of state to gamble their bucks (and then some in unfortunate cases).

I don’t think it is a monopoly per-se, nor do I think that legislators are afraid to legalize gambling because it’ll take away from lottery money. There’s plenty of people who buy lottery tickets but rarely if ever hit up a casino, and vice versa. Besides, given the right tax structure, the state could rake in even more dough by letting casinos open (except for maybe those built on reservations, but I’m not too sure when it comes to that).

When one can hop to the other Carolina and gamble at the Cherokee casino, or swing on over to a Lexington “sweepstakes” business to play video poker, the only conclusion left is that SC feels morally superior letting these folks piss away their cash where they can’t see it and not take a cut of it. Out of sight, out of our minds if you ask me.

Reply
The Colonel (R) March 29, 2013 at 12:11 pm

I agree with you totally on the “…out of sight out of mind…” assertion.

Reply
Jan March 29, 2013 at 10:04 am

Is this news? Taking lobbyist paid trips is what Republicans do. See Jack Abramoff, See Tom “the Hammer” Delay. Nothing new here.

Our legislators are being openly bribed and we are turning our heads. We need campaign finance reform. There has to be a limit on what people can pay to or pay to benefit a government official, and we need full disclosure on who is making all contributions or payments which go to or benefit of (directly or indirectly) any politician.

Reply
Charlemagne, King of France March 29, 2013 at 10:13 am

what makes this news is that last line, where it says that it wasnt paid for by registered lobbiest

Reply
Jan March 29, 2013 at 10:04 am

Is this news? Taking lobbyist paid trips is what Republicans do. See Jack Abramoff, See Tom “the Hammer” Delay. Nothing new here.

Our legislators are being openly bribed and we are turning our heads. We need campaign finance reform. There has to be a limit on what people can pay to or pay to benefit a government official, and we need full disclosure on who is making all contributions or payments which go to or benefit of (directly or indirectly) any politician.

Reply
Charlemagne, King of France March 29, 2013 at 10:13 am

what makes this news is that last line, where it says that it wasnt paid for by registered lobbiest

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 10:11 am

If you are going to post articles like this, name names. Otherwise, it smacks of McCarthyism

Reply
Will Folks aka Sic March 29, 2013 at 11:10 am

“Tailgunner Sic.” I like it. Has a nice ring to it. Of course when a sitting lawmaker flatly admits to having gone on one of the junkets, that works for us.

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 11:17 am

If the shoe (and name) FITS….

Reply
Mr. McCarthy March 29, 2013 at 12:42 pm

unfortunately, this comment is an oxymoron since the very basis of mcCarthyism is doing things to submerse, hinder, bully and influence others WITHOUT the worry of being found out…

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 1:05 pm

And you think Fits gives a rip?

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 10:11 am

If you are going to post articles like this, name names. Otherwise, it smacks of McCarthyism

Reply
Will Folks aka Sic March 29, 2013 at 11:10 am

“Tailgunner Sic.” I like it. Has a nice ring to it. Of course when a sitting lawmaker flatly admits to having gone on one of the junkets, that works for us.

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 11:17 am

If the shoe (and name) FITS….

Reply
Mr. McCarthy March 29, 2013 at 12:42 pm

unfortunately, this comment is an oxymoron since the very basis of mcCarthyism is doing things to submerse, hinder, bully and influence others WITHOUT the worry of being found out…

Reply
Fleet March 29, 2013 at 1:05 pm

And you think Fits gives a rip?

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 10:42 am

That was deleted quick!

Reply
Scrappy March 29, 2013 at 10:42 am

That was deleted quick!

Reply
BeaufortTiger March 29, 2013 at 11:10 am

So let me get this straight… the state freaks out if a bunch of Oklahoma Indians want to build a casino in Hardeeville at *no* cost to the state that would attract at least 2,000 jobs in an economically depressed area, but has no problem endorsing a monopoly on gambling through the “education” lottery and looking the other way as the politicians have fun in Vegas, AC, Biloxi, et al?

As jimlewis usually and eloquently puts it… what a bunch of effin’ cockroaches.

Reply
BeaufortTiger March 29, 2013 at 11:10 am

So let me get this straight… the state freaks out if a bunch of Oklahoma Indians want to build a casino in Hardeeville at *no* cost to the state that would attract at least 2,000 jobs in an economically depressed area, but has no problem endorsing a monopoly on gambling through the “education” lottery and looking the other way as the politicians have fun in Vegas, AC, Biloxi, et al?

As jimlewis usually and eloquently puts it… what a bunch of effin’ cockroaches.

Reply
Da Man March 29, 2013 at 11:44 am

It’s really pitiful how low these legislators will go. I’d rather cut grass than go on some nasty junket.

Reply
Da Man March 29, 2013 at 11:44 am

It’s really pitiful how low these legislators will go. I’d rather cut grass than go on some nasty junket.

Reply
Stavrinakis constituent March 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm

“Shorty” Stavrinakis is heavily indebted to Charleston’s (democrat) Mayor Joe Riley, who ran TV ads that were the talk of town. The ads were 15 seconds long, very funny, memorable, and effective: Riley, smiling, standing in front of an American flag, and said one word: “STAVRINAKIS!” In return, Stavrinakis has betrayed his constituents (including me) in favor of Mayor Riley’s pet projects, including the hugely-unpopular $250 million extension of I-526 that will make hundreds of millions for Riley contributors like real estate tycoon Charlie Way (The Beach Company). Stavrinakis and Riley have a symbiotic – feeding relationship, like mistletoe or moss on a tree. Stavrinakis absolutely has “special access” to the Charleston City Police Dept. or Municipal Judge Joe Mendelsohn. This blog surprises me not one bit.

Reply
Stavrinakis constituent March 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm

“Shorty” Stavrinakis is heavily indebted to Charleston’s (democrat) Mayor Joe Riley, who ran TV ads that were the talk of town. The ads were 15 seconds long, very funny, memorable, and effective: Riley, smiling, standing in front of an American flag, and said one word: “STAVRINAKIS!” In return, Stavrinakis has betrayed his constituents (including me) in favor of Mayor Riley’s pet projects, including the hugely-unpopular $250 million extension of I-526 that will make hundreds of millions for Riley contributors like real estate tycoon Charlie Way (The Beach Company). Stavrinakis and Riley have a symbiotic – feeding relationship, like mistletoe or moss on a tree. Stavrinakis absolutely has “special access” to the Charleston City Police Dept. or Municipal Judge Joe Mendelsohn. This blog surprises me not one bit.

Reply
GreenvilleLwyr March 29, 2013 at 3:05 pm

If Leon stands up to Sic, will the top of Leon’s head get up to Sic’s shoulders?

Reply
GreenvilleLwyr March 29, 2013 at 3:05 pm

If Leon stands up to Sic, will the top of Leon’s head get up to Sic’s shoulders?

Reply

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