Two-and-a-half years ago, we posed a question that we’d like to ask again today on the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
It’s a simple question, one that we think has probably already been answered by the risk-averse, politically correct way in which America tries to “wage war” as the world’s sole remaining “superpower.”
So here goes … does America have the stomach for war anymore?
We’d like to think that it does (given that our enemies clearly have the stomach to wage war against us), but the numbers really don’t bear that contention out.
In previous conflicts, America sacrificed soldiers by the hundreds of thousands, but then the Vietnam War brought images of that sacrifice into our living rooms on a nightly basis – with reporters often non-heroically portraying the soldiers who were giving up their lives.
Since Vietnam, America has had no appetite for mass casualties, although in fairness that’s not distinctly an American trait and is probably a result of the evolution of warfare in the nuclear/ asymmetrical (terrorist) age.
Nonetheless, our nation lost 416 soldiers each day during World War II. By comparison, during the Iraq war America has averaged roughly 2 deaths per day.
Again, those are two vastly different conflicts in two vastly different eras, but the question still stands … what are your thoughts?
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By Ynot December 7, 2009 at 6:55 am
wars should be based on real enemies, not the ones we make up to fight.
check out Bhutto saying Bin Laden is dead at :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg
so Osama isn’t. Wake up people.
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 7:35 am
Of course…That is a necessary declared war.Not a contrived illegal invasion such as Vietnam and Iraq.Neither of these were legal and were concocted just to make weapon suppliers rich.Stop the lies…Bring them home now!!
By Andy Arnold December 7, 2009 at 7:56 am
I don’t think you can compare Iraq or Vietnam with WWII. America had an enemy that was committed to coming to our shores. Nazis were actually attempting to takeover the world, beginning with Europe. Saddam was a two-bit dictator who was no threat to us or his neighbors. Vietnam was a pawn. The domino theory notwithstanding, both these wars was not against an threat to America’s homeland. America will support war and will bear the deaths of her sons if America believed in the cause represented by the war.
And there is something to be said about a nation that abhors war, especially of optional wars, and desires to win peace through diplomacy and trade relations. Hopefully, this question will become less and less important, but I suppose as long as militant Islam festers anywhere, war remains a real possibility.
By dirtbogger December 7, 2009 at 8:41 am
If my sons did not want war, there would be none.” – Gutle Schnaper in 1849, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild
By Rebel December 7, 2009 at 8:50 am
Wow. I didn’t think the poll results would have such a large majority.
It took Bush weeks to go to Afghanistan after 9/11. We even set an appointment with them, and told everyone to get out of the way,while they were holding press conferences and lecturing us. If we were serious about national security, we would have been launching missiles by the time the second tower fell. At least kick down some doors, and strike fear into the hearts of would-be terrorists. Why was the shock and awe saved for Iraqis, or was that a show? And what about China, North Korea? If China invaded Taiwan, would we step up to help them? Really?
By countryboy December 7, 2009 at 8:56 am
IMO this question doesn’t apply to wars we are in or apt to be in. As we suffer casualties in insurgency type conflicts our superior technology and tactics evolve to minimize casualties. More appropriate question would be:
1) Are we willing to ignore the bad publicity resulting from so called collateral damage to assure we kill an enemy? Now our military (and CIA) is hampered by having to get clearance to attack say a compound or village which contains both insurgents and non combatants. Sometimes the clearance is not forth coming. Other times it takes so long to get that the combatants have left. How many time since 9/11 could we have killed terrorists and their leaders if we had swiftly wiped out a compound or village? IMO in most instances people giving aid and comfort to an enemy are doing so willingly and even gladly, so why worry about killing them?
2) Are we willing to spend billions of dollars, year after year, to fight insurgency wars which by their nature go on forever? I am amazed that we as a country have essentially condoned giving the government a blank check to fight two wars since 9/11.
By rick December 7, 2009 at 9:09 am
Even in WWII we had individuals and groups opposed to Europeans wars. The difference is we didn’t give them a platform to spread their ideals. Most Americans of that time had friends and family engaged in every aspect of the war. Now we have not only a media that purposefully undermines the wars fought since WWII, but we have an elite class in which few ever serve. Biden/McCain are the only ones that come to mind. Where are the Rockefeller’s, Kennedy’s, Bush’s, Cheney’s. America is not engaged in the wars being fought today. Kerry gave us the answer attitude wise, when he said that failure to get an education was a ticket to Iraq. He did our servicemen and women untold harm with his statement, but provided the attitude that must be addressed. Is it punishment to join and serve? As a 20 year vet, I watched our nation in my formative years brutalize our returning men from Viet Nam. The end of the draft due to the wealthy and privileged finding ways to not serve as a reward for they’re parents political connections. We’ve built a military no nation can defeat…yet we win only defeat. America wants to win without pain. Without obligation. Without doing the hard work and understanding these men and women don’t deserve the wars we force them to fight. Until the average American man and woman understand that war is ugly, brutal, and savage we will continue to demand much more from these men and women than they should be forced to deliver. When we, the American public makes serving an honorable profession, when we support the concept that war is unfair and the innocent will suffer, when we accept that wars should only be a last resort, and being connected, wealthy or anti-war has no protection, you will be called upon to serve and are expected to serve honorably, then we will begin to win again. War is a brutal confrontation in which the meanest, nastiest, most powerful wins…unless your the United States and decide that giving a bloody lip to a terrorist is worthy of a court martial. This is why we fail. This is why we fail our forefathers. We’ve become a fat lazy self absorbed society in which failure is not only approved of, but sought after.
By laney December 7, 2009 at 9:42 am
We lost more Americans on 9/11 than in Pearl.
Unlike Japan, we are a one-nuke country.
Will roll over and surrender after the first nuke is detonated by the jihadis.
By dirtbogger December 7, 2009 at 9:57 am
since you brought it up, http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl.html
By WorkingTommyC December 7, 2009 at 10:10 am
Considering the willingness of many to fight in illegal wars (all since 1941) there is no doubt we have plenty of folks who will step forward.
Unfortunately, the Congress and Presidents have not been very responsible in following the Constitution before waging war.
As for the images of war people see, photography relaying news came into its own during the Civil War with displays of dead bodies and other military images shocking many of the populace.
By Mohanna December 7, 2009 at 10:46 am
I would be very wary of the person who has a stomach for war.
By Just a good ole boy December 7, 2009 at 10:59 am
FITS–the sad truth is many Americans are cowards. My father, who was part of the greatest generation, fought in WW II and Korea and considered it his duty to serve. Now some 50+ years later,many Americans do not. Granted many decided to join the armed forces in the days after 9/11 but recruitment fell off until the economy turned south over the last couple of years.
So that leds to question of why? Many parents do not want their sons/daughters in harms way for an administration or its policies,either Democrat or Republican that they do not support. American parents have come to a point where we want to get by and survive,we want our children close to us because we believe that only we can protect them. Now let me make this very clear, that does not mean we are not patriotic or we do not love our country. It means that as parents we are afraid that our sons/daughters will be scarificed in a fight where there is no clear objective against an unseen enemy in a fight we do not totally understand (and many do no want to understand).
It is a sad reflection of the times we live in,but many Americans are like a scene from the movie “Network”,they want their big screen TV,the leather recliner,to go to work and send their children to school and most importantly to be left alone. The generations that have come since the greatest generation, have forgotten the lessons they should have learned from the greatest generation. Lessons of virtue, pride,truth, honor, humility and sacrifice. The poll numbers I have seen (yours and others)leave me with a great concern for the future of my children and my grandchildren.
But there is one thing we should all remember, the future is like a fog,none of us can clearly see what is coming until it is here. We can only hope and pray that the light we see in the distance shines on a better future for the coming generations of young Americans and is not the on rushing train of diaster,despair and hopelessness we fear.
By darth December 7, 2009 at 11:00 am
dirtblogger, it has taken a war to pull the US out of econominc DEPRESSION and the narcissistic Kenyan will, doubtless try to find a way, maybe with Ollie Stoned to try to wag the dog and send sons and duaghters off to die for his arrogance. Whether or not this unerringly and unfortunately causes Al Queda to set off a former soviet “physics package”, it will be costly.
By 2 cents December 7, 2009 at 11:25 am
The best I can say is to ask you this, FITS.
Does the U.S. want to change the world through war? Any war is always ultimately a battle of ideas & beliefs. And a great way to gain power, land, resources, etc.
Since my opinion on this matter really doesn’t count that much (I’m not a soldier, ultimately) I’ll say that it should be left up to soldiers, not politicians, as to whether or not we go to war. Give them the untainted information on a country or area, let them decide. They are the ones who gather the intelligence and see first hand what’s going on. They have clearance to information we do not, as average citizens.
With the evidence provided, not based on my opinions, I believe 911 was planned & carried out by the Bush/Cheyney folks hand-in-hand with Saudi Arabia & possibly other Middle Eastern countries or groups.
I was very close to a special ops individual who fought and spent a great amount of time in the Middle East. He does not support these wars in the M.E.. Nor does he support either Bush Administration.
I simply hope to see the world rid of the scourge of war in my lifetime, just as I hope to see cancer & AIDS cured.
Just my 2 cents. Must say I believe anyone supporting any war should be willing to pick up arms and fight it themselves. Anyone.
By OhNoNotAgain December 7, 2009 at 11:26 am
I think Americans have the stomach for a necessary war.
I don’t think our politicians, of either party have the stomach for it.
There are some Democrats who want to wage war. Some who are peaceniks.
There are some Republicans who love war and would nuke me if I brushed past their grandmas in the checkout line. Others are not so trigger happy, and probably a few who, deep down, regret and wish to avoid war.
But the Republicans who gave us this war we are in THIS way don’t really want to do all that needs to be done. We increased our regular budget AND had a war budget, all at the same time as we put in a tax increase. We didn’t scrimp and save in government. We weren’t asked to do scrap drives or any personal sacrifices. No war bonds, etc. Nothing that says we are at war and we have to adjust the way we live. No, we were told to be “good consumers.”
I’m sorry, but I am a citizen of this country, not a consumer in it.
I think the war in Afghanistan was a just war in anybody’s book. We unleashed hell on the Taliban, but stopped short of the goal.
We should have declared war, specifically, against al Qauda, not “terrorism.”
In my mind, if we didn’t find a cooperative AFghanistan, we brush it aside. We did that with the Taliban. We didn’t have an obligation to build a new government there. That’s secondary. If they are in the mountains betwee Afghan. and Paki., then you go in from both sides. WIth pakiistan’s help if the want it, without their help if they won’t. It wasn’t our responsibility to prop up that country’s junta boss.
All the resources devoted to Iraq should have been spent on AFghanistan. I have a stomach for that, and the casualties resulting. Going against bin Laden and al Qaida was as moral a cause for war as World War II.
Anyway, that’s what I think.
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 11:43 am
Just a good ole boy…That was a lot of words to make a speech Bush has made 100 times….Pure bullshit.Feel free to wave a flag and send your kids to die for any unexplained or bullshit reason…Leave mine alone…
Maybe its not too late for you to roam around in a dust storm and get shot at like a duck in a carnival game…Maybe you would learn what reality is
By Huh? December 7, 2009 at 11:44 am
Rick said it best…… All I can add is an Amen!!
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Huh? and Rick..I hope you both have the chance to give your lives to what you think is important in life…..
By dirtbogger December 7, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Darth I hope you are wrong about the physics package, however I dout it will be Al Queda. Probably more like Mossad (false flag) making sure we stay the course.
By Pat Hendrix December 7, 2009 at 1:03 pm
World War II and Vietnam/Iraq are not comparable. Not even close. In one war, a war we only entered after being attacked, the nation was willing to pay any price to defeat fascism. Everything was at stake. No comparison can be made with that war – or WWI or the Civil War for that matter – and with Iraq and Vietnam.
If provoked this country and its sons and daughters will answer the call, but they will not throw away their lives over some nebulous notion of “falling dominos” or “democracy in the Iraq.” That doesn’t make us cowards, it makes us rightfully skeptical of our government.
In any event, they’re still taking recruits at 40. Sounds like somebody needs to ante up.
By dirtbogger December 7, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Pat we are at war within our borders with Fascism now, currently it is an information war. A ruff definition for Fascism is the marrage of cooperatizm, and the state- I am sure you know that but it makes my point. othewise you had a good post that I agree with, be careful hell is about to freeze over.
By Where's my Gun December 7, 2009 at 2:15 pm
This article is not about a traditional war, but it is about how Americans have been changing their way of thinking, we need to wake up. War will be the least of our troubles. The war on our beliefs is being fought, but do we know it? Strange it comes from Canada.
http://bit.ly/79uMdU
ps
what Rick said
By Rick December 7, 2009 at 2:25 pm
By Liberty For Me….the difference son, is that my Son wore the Uniform of the United States Marines and served in the middle east. My Son is the 4th generation to wear the uniform and offer up whatever we have to serve our nation. The lesson son is: once the lead starts flying, it doesn’t matter who the president is, who sent you, or the make up of congress. We can sit all day and toss blame at any target you wish, but in the end its the young man or women who is sitting in harms way placed there by us. We elected our leaders, we elected our representatives, both sides of the issue voiced their approval until the going became difficult. Thats when the excuses came out and it’s all about Bush and Cheney…well its about every one of us that didn’t stand that day and say NO. So continue to point your finger, in the end you’ll come to realize that there are 3 pointed back at the owner. Sooner or later, personal responsibility and accountability comes to play. Myself, I’ll stick with the troops, most are youngsters that know no better on their first tour…but ya gotta love em when the second, third and forth tour comes around and their hands are still raised to be allowed to serve. And you snivel about legalities…well continue since its men and women such as these that will always protect your right to do so…..
By Huh? December 7, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Actually Liberty, while I didn’t give my life, I did serve proudly for over 20 years in the US Army! Yes, I’ve seen combat, have you?
By Rick December 7, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Pat, the men and women that served in WWII were for the most part no different in their scepticism of the government than we are. While a minority joined Canada or Britain, most wanted Europe to finish their business without involving the US. That didn’t happen. Instead Japan changed the minds of Americans. What do you suppose would have been the ending of WWII if we had only engaged the Japanese. After all, they started it and our obligation was only to punish Japan. Do you think Europe would be in the position today to continue their decline into socialism or would Europe bare the face of Fascism/communism? Since England was the only country left to oppose Germany, without our entry into the war to aid the British, what would England look like today? Throughout our history we have had men and women that just wanted to be left alone, and we’ve had some that looked beyond their comfort to determine the right or wrong of things. Those that want to be left alone and will give up freedom for safety are generally called slaves, those that look to protect their nation are called men. They don’t make the rules, they just bleed. And 40 is to young….I’m 57 and would trade my comfort to be able to serve with these Americans in a war they never asked for. Maybe you need to leave the academics to the school teachers and begin reading the founding fathers, while not perfect, they understood freedom and liberty.
By dirtbogger December 7, 2009 at 2:58 pm
You do not need a uniform to serve, even Burger King employees wear a uniform. When (Liberty for me) post he is defending the Constitution which is worth more than all the oil in the middle east. Dare I say if you want to serve your country, defend the Constitutuion, not the Government or its war crimes! No I did not join the military because I do not beleave in blindly following any flag, when the Ideallogy is morally wrong.
By Bobby December 7, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Americans can stomach war, but not when was is a choice and not a necessity. Afghanistan and Iraq are wars of choice. We were attacked on 9/11 by criminals, not military forces, and the sooner people understand that the sooner we will quit killing people and creating more terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
By countryboy December 7, 2009 at 4:19 pm
World Trade Center attack 1, 9/11, bombing of Marine barracks in Beirut, bombing of barracks in Saudi Arabia, bombing of embassies in several countries, the Cole bombing. All attacks by fanatical fundamentalist muslims. What is it going to take for Americans (including some idiots on this website) to understand where these terrorists are coming from? They want the world to worship Islam (and their brand of Islam). You convert to Islam or you are an infidel and therefore, the enemy of Islam. We could pull our military and even our civilians out of Muslim countries and the fundamentalists would still want to kill us. Hell they even kill fellow muslims for not following their particular brand of Islam. IMO fighting them on their soil delays the day that we have suicide bombers and IED’s on our soil. And that day will come soon enough, IMO.
By Just a good ole boy December 7, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Liberty for me;like my father and grandfather before me,I served as has my son who was injured in a non-combat accident. Your tirade and personal attacks reflect the lack of character desplayed by the liberals of this country who would rather fold like a house of cards than stand for real American values.
As far as getting shot at like a duck in a shooting gallery allow me to quote a great American movie about a real American:
“Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you’ve heard about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big league ball player, the toughest boxer. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. I wouldn’t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That’s why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. Because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans.
Now, an Army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of crap. The bilious bastards who wrote that stuff about individuality for the Saturday Evening Post don’t know anything more about real battle than they do about fornicating.
We have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. You know, by God I actually pity those poor bastards we’re going up against. By God, I do. We’re not just going to shoot the bastards, we’re going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We’re going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
Now, some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you’ll chicken out under fire. Don’t worry about it. I can assure you that you will all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them. Spill their blood. Shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend’s face, you’ll know what to do.
Now there’s another thing I want you to remember. I don’t want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We’re not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we’re not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We’re going to hold onto him by the nose and we’re going to kick him in the ass. We’re going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we’re gonna go through him like crap through a goose.
There’s one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home. And you may thank God for it. Thirty years from now when you’re sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what did you do in the great World War II, you won’t have to say, “Well, I shoveled **** in Louisiana.”
Alright now, you sons-of-bitches, you know how I feel. Oh, and I will be
proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle – anytime, anywhere…” George Patton as portrayed by George C Scott.
Allow me to close with this thought, please oh please take a swing at this because it will only confirm what I stated at the opening;too many Americans have become cowardly and you sir are the epitome of one…
By sid December 7, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Yes, the true patriots are the nameless bloggers who post paranoid ramblings equating members of the military to blind lemmings who do nothing more for this country than minimum wage fast food employees. I think your tin foil is slipping, dirtbooger.
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 5:57 pm
By HUH? and Rick…dirtbogger pretty much has my back.You must not have paid attention to your oath when you enlisted….Your Uniform and duty is to protect the Constitution…You can wave flags and yell bomb them to rubble all you want and it does not make you a patriot…Defending our freedom and liberty even against orders if they are against the Constitution is where your allegiance should be…if not you are a traitor……Son
“Wheres my gun”….article says it all,that is where our focus should be
By 2 cents December 7, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Rick,
I hope you’re posting from Iraq or Afganistan. If you believe in these wars so much, you fight them, sir.
I did not elect the leaders who started these wars.
Now I’m not some beatnik peace freak and some things are worth fighting for. I would have gladly picked up arms in the War Between the States, even though I’m very anti-slavery. I would have picked up arms during WW II.
However, remember and realize that our country has a lot of blood on its hands considering how it treats its own citizens. Slavery was once legal here. Entire populations of Native Americans were wiped out because of our European founders. Poor white folk were treated just as bad.
Thank God for people who believe in diplomacy. The entire world would be perpetually at war otherwise, with no hope for peace.
I could type for hours, but what I’m trying to say is that our government, with respect to so many issues, has forgotten about, and is neglecting, hell, waging war on its own citizens. I may be wrong, in some ways I hope I am, in others ways I hope to see it come, but if things get much worse in this country we’re soon going to have outright revolution and very much resemble the two countries we’re now at war with.
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Just a good ole boy ..see my last post.What I have said has nothing to do with bravery….It has to do with Loyalty….again waving flags and quoting Patton has nothing to do with supporting the Constitution.
If you shit on our Constitution…you are a traitor..period!!
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 6:03 pm
SID….I guess that is as deep as you get huh??
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 6:15 pm
countryboy….why are they not bombing other countries that are not Muslim???….why do they bomb some muslim countries??
watch this….maybe it will open your eyes…goes for the rest of you mindless posters…Wake up before its too late
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTYi7VeL_D4&feature=channel
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 6:38 pm
WHY CANT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A JUST AND LEGAL WAR AND AN ILLEGAL INVASION??????????????????????????????????????
WE HAVE JUST AS MANY ,IF NOT MORE PATRIOTS TODAY WILLING TO FIGHT A JUST WAR!!!!!!
BUT SO MANY OF YOU HAVE BEEN SO BRAINWASHED YOU CANT THINK FOR YOURSELVES TO KNOW WHAT THAT IS……….
By CNSYD December 7, 2009 at 6:40 pm
LFM and dirtbogger, “provide for the common defense”. Apparently to you that means we ALL sit around like wonks and debate do we or don’t we. Unless we get 100% agreement we do nothing. That right? Even though neither of you was alive at the time Kipling, obviously had you in mind when he wrote” For its Tommy this and Tommy that and chuck him out the brute. But its savior of his country when the guns begin to shoot”. At this very moment, men are under the sea with more destructive force than has ever been used in mankind’s history just to ensure that the Constitution is protected. But you would rather appease enemies. That’s what Chamberlin thought would work also.
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 7:05 pm
CNSYD…
What are you talking about “appeaseing enemies”??…
and yes you have said you were in the Navy and I appreciate your service.But what does that have to do with anything I have said??..Are you drinking??
By countryboy December 7, 2009 at 7:19 pm
LFM if you are such a big constitutional patriot, why did you refer me to a link that is obviously anti-american and pro-muslim? You must have a very weak mind, like those that become suicide bombers, if you believe that trash.
By sid December 7, 2009 at 7:28 pm
LFM, you, sometimes, make sense. Here, however, I go only as deep as necessary to address the lunatic ramblings of dirtbooger. The idea that you defend his post I addressed (not yours, so lighten up, Frances) tells me I may have been wrong about my first impressions of you. Perhaps you are simply as tightly wound, and loosely wrapped, as the ‘booger.
By bruce arnold December 7, 2009 at 8:15 pm
PRESS RELEASE: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
“No You Can’t!” Protesters To Tell Obama at December 12 Rally
Peace Movement Groups Unite Against Obama War Escalation – Warning of
Reprisals to Troop Surge
WASHINGTON DC, December 1, 2009 – More than 100 leading peace activists have
announced an “Emergency Anti-Escalation Rally” at the White House on
December 12, from 11:00am to 4:00pm, to reject President Obama’s announced
military escalation in Afghanistan. The rally is organized by End US Wars, a
newly formed coalition of national and grass-roots antiwar organizations,
with endorsements from leading peace activists.
Rally organizers are calling for the left to end its support for Obama now
that he has committed to a troop surge, and to condemn and oppose Obama’s
war policy. In addition, the process will begin to replace Obama with an
anti-war candidate, and to remove any pro-war legislators. Protests will
intensify against U.S. war involvement in Afghanistan, Iraq and any other
countries.
Speakers include: Cynthia McKinney, Sen. Mike Gravel, Kathy Kelly, Chris
Hedges, David Swanson, Rev. Graylan Hagler, Coy McKinney, Debra Sweet, Brian
Becker, Mathis Chiroux, Lynne Williams, Hon. Betty Hall, Elaine Brower,
Marian Douglas, Michael Knox, Ralph Lopez, Ron Fisher. Statements will also
be read from Col. Ann Wright, Stephen Zunes and Granny D (turning 100).
Jordan Page and Emma’s Revolution will be among the musical performers.
End US Wars’ “Open Letter to Obama,” posted on the website, demands that
Obama keep his promise and end the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars; call a
cessation of Predator drone attacks over Pakistan; and begin immediate
reconstruction and recovery in war-torn regions.
Prior to the rally on Saturday, December 12 at 11 a.m. in Lafayette Park,
the film “Rethink Afghanistan” will be shown Friday December 11, from 6:00
to 8:00 p.m., at Busboys & Poets, 14th and V Streets, NW, Washington, DC.
The video can be viewed online free in six parts here:
http://tinyurl.com/c8f8nk
For information, email: contact@enduswars.org or visit http://www.enduswars.org.
For press inquiries, phone: 207-604-8988.
###
THE AFGHAN RAG
( Original lyrics from “I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag”
a.k.a. “Vietnam Rag” by Country Joe McDonald,
revised and updated by Bruce Arnold )
Yo, wake up texters, listen in,
Uncle Sam’s after more boogeymen;
Dubya left Barack in a terrible jam
Way over in Afghanistan.
So put down your iPhone and pick up a gun,
We’re gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it’s one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Not freedom or our fellow man,
Next stop’s Afghanistan;
And it’s five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain’t no need to wonder why,
For peak oil, we’re all gonna die.
Well come on, McChrystal, let’s move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta kill all those towel heads -
Though Muslims ain’t who we should dread.
Our robber barons, they’re the ones
Who blew the Towers to kingdom come.
And it’s one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Not freedom or our fellow man,
Next stop’s Afghanistan;
And it’s five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain’t no need to wonder why,
For peak oil, we’re all gonna die.
Huh!
Well, come on Wall Street, don’t move slow,
Since 9-1-1, it’s go-go-go.
There’s plenty good money to be made
Supplying both sides with the tools of the trade.
Just hope if they grab a Pakistani bomb,
They drop it on Dick Cheney’s lawn.
And it’s one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Not freedom or our fellow man,
Next stop’s Afghanistan.
And it’s five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain’t no need to wonder why,
For peak oil, we’re all gonna die.
Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Send your child to Afghanistan.
Come on fathers, don’t hesitate,
Send ‘em off before it’s too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your kid come home in a box.
And it’s one, two, three
What are we fighting for?
Not freedom or our fellow man,
Next stop’s Afghanistan.
And it’s five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain’t no need to wonder why,
For peak oil, we’re all gonna die.
–with apologies to Country Joe MacDonald
( http://www.countryjoe.com/feelmus.htm )
Source: http://tinyurl.com/ydpopxa
###
OilPeakalypse Now (The Oil Factor Behind 9/11 and the War on Terror):
http://tinyurl.com/yzhpdjr
###
F**K CLOUDMARK CENSORSHIP: http://tinyurl.com/yk9dnt5
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 8:48 pm
countryboy..did you really watch it??.This is not a disputable thing..It is a fact….says the U.S. gov…dumbass
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 8:55 pm
sid..I think this is miscommunication.I thought his point was a uniform dosent make you a patriot..following the constitution does
By Katherine Jenerette December 7, 2009 at 9:53 pm
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” ~ John Stuart Mill – English economist & philosopher (1806 – 1873)
By Liberty For Me December 7, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Katherine….So should we attack someone like a dictatorship??..or like our Constitution states… have our representation declare war??
I would think if we wanted a king we would not have made laws to the contrary…But like you have see in these posts,when I stand up for law..I am called a coward and unpatriotic…where do you stand??or do you dare??
By CNSYD December 7, 2009 at 11:25 pm
LFM, please provide your list of foreign enemies of the US. Next to each one state your plan to eliminate ANY threat that they pose to this country. If you have no plan to eliminate their threat, then you are for either appeasement or surrender.
By countryboy December 8, 2009 at 8:11 am
Katherine, somehow you came up with an absolutely perfect writing (by John Mill) to describe Liberty For Me.
“A miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by exertions of better men than himself”…
Brilliant!
By granddragon December 8, 2009 at 8:32 am
Liberty for Me has no business being on this forum. This forum is for conservatives and those who follow leaders. Things go a lot better if people like LFM would just learn to obey and stop questioning authority. Liberty for Me is able to think for himself and we don’t need any of that here.
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 9:27 am
Granddragon,,thank you…Its scary how many people like “country boy and cnsyd” want to “follow a leader”…..Like Stalin?..Hitler??…We are a REPUBLIC you morons…we don’t have a king.How dumb are you people….We have a constitution and LAWS…Why don’t we just get rid of the judges and police if we are not going to have laws???
CNYSD….We have no enemies since we have not declared war…
You can not declare war on a religion..Afghanistan has no military and they are not our enemy…Most of them are lucky to have shoes…There was a clan that was set up there and now they are gone…If you want to kill everyone there because they resent us being there then you and the like have some really messed up brains…
CNYSD….I thought you broke no laws???but you encourage others to do so??? what a hypocrite..or our government does not have to follow its own laws is that what you are saying??but we do?? Is That what you are saying Katherine Jenerette???
Why would we fight anyone? to protect our liberty??….then why is it the first damn thing we give up is the laws that protect us from tyranny?? You guys really drink a lot of KOOL-Aid….
By Goldwater December 8, 2009 at 9:30 am
WW2 would not have happened if the US did not meddle in WW1, a war we should never have entered
By CNSYD December 8, 2009 at 9:53 am
LFM, since we have no declared wars lets bring all our armed forces back and then disarm them. Disband the CIA, NSA, etc. Destroy all of our military equipment. Close all the bases. Obviously we have nothing to fear according to you. We will worry about all that if and when we have a declared war. It will all reappear by magic.
Now you are interested in laws. Before it was just the Constitution. So what our military does today violates the Constitution and the laws? BTW have you ever heard of the chain of command?
By CNSYD December 8, 2009 at 10:08 am
Goldwater, the seeds of WWII were sown in a railroad car in Paris. The frogs wanted to destroy what was left of Germany after WWI. All that gots us was the National Socialists and WWII. It was typical frogs. We have to rescue their ass and then they think they are in charge.
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 10:22 am
The constitution is the law …what does not declaring war have anything to do the NSA??? are you drinking again??
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 10:23 am
Damn right I got you back LFM! Listen folks, all I am trying to do is provoke thought, not so much as to insult people. Yes I want people to read into things and get pissed off so they will go try to prove me wrong, thats how I learned how corrupt our government is; by fact checking. But with that knowldege comes some responsability, a warning though you may have to man up and go against popular thought and opinion.
This will get you started, FDR had pushed Japans back to the wall by cutting off oil to them, stopped trade, and a few other reasons. He had set up the pacific fleet to be sitting ducks and stiffeled intel all because of our noninterventionist pollicy at the time. He used Japan to get a war with Germany, go research it. Gulf of Tonkin is de clasified now, go research it. 9/11 Bush reading to children (how convienant) stand down of the airforce ordered by Cheney, an unoccupied section of the Pentagon hit by a plane (whats the odds), and 2 planes knock down 3 buildings and they all fall at the rate of gravity (building 7 was not hit by a plane). Who wrote the Patriot Act which did more damage to the Constitution than any thing written in the last 100 years, hint it was not Binladen. Also Mossad agents had been aressted on 9-11 after vidieo taping the attack. They were released back to Isreal where on a talk show they said they were there to just document the event, (WTF, how did they know. Are they supposed to be our friends?
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 10:25 am
CNSYD..So you are in favor of not abiding to the constitution right??
You always go arong answers,because you know you support anti-constitution policies….
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 10:31 am
that was my point btw LFM, that a uniform does not make you a patriot, thanks.
By Huh? December 8, 2009 at 11:07 am
Methinks that when you deal with Liberty for Me, dirtbooger, and their ilk, we should remember the old adage of “Never, Ever, get into a pissing contest with a skunk!” Rick, Katherine, CNSYD, have said it best, and there is little to add other than…….: Intelligent discourse ceases, where the accusations get personal. Referring to anyone as a traitor for not thinking like you, or pointing at those who wear the uniform as being blind minions, is just such a point.
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 11:28 am
Pat Hendrix…The one and only time I think I have agreed with you.Now come on over from the dark side and support all of our liberity.
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 11:30 am
By Huh…so answer the question..Should we abide by our laws??
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 11:35 am
By HUH..I did not call anyone a traitor who did not think like me..where did I say that.You people just make stuff up.I said if you dont uphold the constitution(which is our law)which you swear an oath to uphold..makes you a traitor.How is that so complicated for you to understand?
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 11:38 am
You people are in such denial….You attack me because I question you.Your responses are of self defense not of sound beliefs…
You either believe in our laws or you dont..no matter what I say.
I did not write the constitution…I am just asking a question
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 11:39 am
Me thinks if you cant answer a simple question…you are of the old saying.Dumb as a rock!!
By sid December 8, 2009 at 11:54 am
The only “thoughts” provoked by your postings, dirtbooger, revolve around questioning how you navigate through life on a daily basis without having a complete, delusional meltdown. Don’t get me wrong, folks, I question many things about individuals within the U.S. government, and the policies and actions they undertake. I’ll even subscribe to some “conspiracy theories.” But I draw the line at the concept apparently promoted by ‘booger (and, perhaps, LFM) that our government ceased to be a collection of individuals with differing ideologies and elected by the people, and is now some sort of living organism that has become self-aware, and is the great and powerful puppetmaster that pulls the world’s strings, no matter who is elected. Occam’s razor needs to be applied far more liberally than trying to find the most convoluted, complicated theories that will support your anti-government perspective.
By Katherine Jenerette December 8, 2009 at 11:55 am
Thank you Rick, Huh?, CNSYD and Country Boy. This is a real hard subject to put into words; I know I tied to back in 1998 – I still am in uniform – and at Ft. Bragg most recently – but here is how I said it back when I was much younger; just a soldier once; and before politics:
“It’s strange, I always seem to get Veterans Day and Memorial day mixed together in my head; one day is for the dead and the other is for the living… I had an uncle whose name is on the Vietnam Wall who will forever be 21-years old. I had a friend in my unit who I rode into the desert with back in ’91 who made the supreme sacrifice in a minefield far away from home in Iraq…and then there is us standing here today – all of us – the lucky ones who came home and are here today.
We remember our battalions, our companies, our ships, our bombers, our tanks. We remember our patrols, our deployments, our battles, our homecoming. We remember our friends, our crews, our units – the mess halls, guard duty – we remember their voices – their shouting – their laughing – their tears. We, the ones that have served this nation, have these images and sounds and feelings burned into our minds, hearts and souls…and sometimes we we look back and wonder…WHAT WAS IT ALL FOR? Does anyone today even care?”
And, I’m still trying to answer that question.
Link: http://www.jenerette.com/desertstorm/veterans_day/speech.html
Duty – Honor – Country
Katherine
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Prove me wrong then Sid use facts and not insults or can you not prove me wrong. You would most likely just say its crazy or not worth the time or call me loony or something easy like that. But what if you supprise me and really just look in depth at 9-11 and see how bogus the official version propagated by the media is? I think someone would have to make a choice and grow a damn back bone, or live on their weak ass knees. To Quote; “the concept apparently promoted by ‘booger (and, perhaps, LFM) that our government ceased to be a collection of individuals with differing ideologies and elected by the people, and is now some sort of living organism that has become self-aware, and is the great and powerful puppetmaster that pulls the world’s strings, no matter who is elected” that is close but not quite my opinion I cant speak for LFM. I believe that we are a Fascist oligarchy. What I do know for fact is that we have become the type beast that the Founding Fathers faught against! Were they terroist, was the constitution and Bill of Rights terroist documents?
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Katherine Jenerette….you wont answer the question either???..should we follow our laws????If side stepping questions is your political tactic..It wont work anymore.No more waving flags and not answering questions.DO YOU BELIEVE IN FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY????
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Katherine Jenerette IS TRYING TO PULL A LINDSEY GRAHAM…..LOOK OVER THERE…ITS A FLAG..WHAT?? WHERE??? YOU WILL NOT GET ELECTED WITHOUT ANSWERING QUESTIONS
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Dirtbogger…We have won this battle. As you can see most of these posters don’t have any ammo…they just attack your person instead of arguing facts…Not one person said whether we should follow our laws..How crazy is that???..Then I am called less than a patriot by some (person) named country boy for pointing out operation Ajax…Like I just made it up and its not fact..These people just follow the leader like zombies..no matter what…If you wave a flag and say its patriotic to invade and it going to protect us..they don’t even question it….that is crazy..Not even somebody running for office…shameful
By sid December 8, 2009 at 1:41 pm
The FFs fought against an enemy that was no secret. The King did not hide the fact that he ruled subjects, and that they had no rights. If you are trying to liken yourself to our FFs, you are simply nuts. But I’ve already implied that.
We have free elections, and a regular, peaceful transition of power. You may not like some of the folks who get elected, but they are not appointed monarchs. In order for your Great Conspiracy to hold true, dirtbooger, it would require thousands, if not tens-of-thousands, of participants, and the conspirators would need to be refreshed on a regular basis. This would have had to be going on since, what, FDR? Or does it go back even farther, with nobody spilling the beans?
Of course, there are folks who are so crazy as to believe our FFs were actually part of a global conspiracy that has been functioning without a hitch for hundreds (perhaps thousands) of years. Are you into Free Masons, Illuminati, and all the other people who have been running our lives for all time?
The great allure of the majority of conspiracy theories is that they generally get so complicated, it’s nearly impossible to completely disprove them. Again, Occam’s razor. I’ve seen plenty of 9-11 conspiracy theories, and plenty of research that disproves them. You probably have, too. The problem is, you just don’t believe those who disprove your theories, because that would not fit into your particular worldview. Why would I bother showing you things you’ve already seen? Your mind is made up. Besides, if this conspiracy really existed, don’t you imagine the leaders have some sort of failsafe? If it gets to the point of actually being “uncovered,” I would imagine they would have some sort of doomsday scheme, so they don’t get taken in to account for all the wrong they’ve been doing. In that sense, the closer you get to truly exposing this “conspiracy,” the closer you get to destroying the world. At least, that’s my theory.
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Sid…I dont want to believe it either.Just explain building 7…I just want to know how this could happen.So far it makes no sense
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 2:16 pm
The great allure of the majority of conspiracy theories is that they generally get so complicated, it’s nearly impossible to completely disprove them. http://www.fitsnews.com/2009/09/14/is-the-u-s-serious-about-finding-osama/
CNSYD actually tried and he deserves credit for his effort.
As far as fail safes go their fail safe is our complience, but if enough people say enough is enough and are noncomplient. Are you familar with the story of Ghandi and how he defeated the British Impire with noncomplience alone. That is always better than option 3 even though it may one day come to that, option 1 is do nothing and let ourselves fall into a disarmed dictatorship.
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Katherine Jenerette, and a few others who clame to be patriotic, why dont you just sign up.
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Watch tru TV Wenesday @10 PM
http://www.trutv.com/
By CNSYD December 8, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Dirtbogger, may I refer you to dictionary.com?
LFM, if, as YOU said, we have no enemies, then we don’t need the NSA because we are safe and secure. That is what, as YOU said, having no enemies means. At this very moment Trident submarines are on patrol armed with MIRVed missles. Obviously we should call them back because, as YOU said, we have no enemies. If the only law is the Constitution and perhaps the Bill of Rights, why do we have all the other laws ans regulations that were derived from these base documents? You fail to understand that implementation of a base statement is extremely hard. You have to cover all the ifs, ands and buts. That is what laws and regulations do. Lets go back even further to a more basic list. Thou shall not kill. Well, after that was issued how many people did the Israelites kill in taking over the land promised them by the author of “thou shall not kill”? So the world has never been and will never be as simplistic as you think it is.
So lets go back to the original document as presented by the Founding Fathers. How many slaves can we send you? What the hell are these women doing voting? You will no longer be able to vote for your Senators. Oh, we made changes? You mean the Constitution is a living document? Imagine that.
By Katherine Jenerette December 8, 2009 at 3:55 pm
The only oath I need:
“I, Katherine Jenerette, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”
http://www.jenerette.com/lt_jenerette/
By dirtbogger December 8, 2009 at 5:14 pm
CNSYD, there were elitist at work during those times, yes we needed to make a few changes in the past, but we could have abollished slavry without war, the Civil War was a profit driven war ment to crush the economy of the South and to preserve the Union. Lincon double crossed the bankers by printing their own money to fund the war and they killed him after the war, that is another discussion though. Now as for the Israelites I can not say that I am their biggest fan, seeing how they have oppresed Palastine and don’t follow the 10 Commandments, their failed false flag attempted sinking of the USS Liberty, and their role on 9-11. Thomas Jefferson Actually struggled with the very concept slavery but at that time it was saw as nessasary, I will remind you there were white slaves to they were called indentured servents. Until a time comes when we know the mind of God we can do our best to grant liberty to all, at the time the Constitution was written it was the most libreal revolutionary document ever written. Freeing slaves granting women the right to vote I concider refinements. However I concider the Patriot Act to be a severe wound. Ben Franklin once said “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
By Liberty For Me December 8, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Katherine..Protecting the constituion does not mean the physical document.It means the laws there in.If you support illegal aggresion against another country you are breaking the oath and the laws of our country.Our representation has never declared war…
We were assaulted by terrorists… A police action should have been voted on and executed.All involved should be tried.Thousands have died now and it is back in the hands of the Afghans.It should be now what it is going to be…A country of poor people trying to make it…It is no business of ours….
We had no legal right to ever go into Iraq…
By granddragon December 8, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Now you’ve gone and done it. Asking questions about stuff we can’t answer. You upset our world view about the official story. Our leaders wouldn’t lie. That would be unAmerican. And you can not prove that nothing was done by our great leader when he was warned about the August 6th brief just because he didn’t stop his vacation. Ha! Can someone explain about the buildings? It’s never happened before. Planes have crashed into buildings before and the buildings didn’t collapse. What about Building Seven? For a building that fell down, it went down mighty straight. The other bigger ones went down pretty straight, too. A plane crashed into the Empire State Building once and all that happened was fire, death but the building stood. Does anybody know why the emergency workers who helped dig out the site were told the environment was safe and now there are a lot of people disabled because they breathed pollutants in the air? The facts of the polluted air were known, but no one told the truth and lots of well-meaning people sacrificed their time, money and now their health and eventually their lives because they were not told the truth about the air being dangerous due to the debris particulate in the air. Now you got me thinking about the passport of one of the accused criminals on one of the planes that survived the plane crashing into the building and the explosion and fire but just fluttered down and was found at the crime scene. And why wasn’t the site closed off as a crime scene? Instead, the metal was quickly gathered and shipped away and the metal was melted down and there goes the evidence. There are so many people on this thread that wear uniforms and that’s great, but does that give their opinion more validity than someone who wears a uniform at a restaurant? Isn’t it supposed to be a one-class society, where everyone is equal? Another question is do those who wear the uniform know what their boy Henry Kissinger is quoted as saying about military people? If they know, just remember that it wasn’t any of us who said it. Dang you! Asking all these questions just opens up a can of worms and it ain’t good for the status quo.
By sid December 8, 2009 at 7:38 pm
LFM:
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
By CNSYD December 8, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Not living in Columbia, I am not familar with where the facilities that used to be called “Bull Street” have been relocated. However, facilities of that type are where dirtbogger, LFM and granddragon need to be sent. They are obviously a danger to themselves and may end up being a danger to the rest of us. They suffer from OCD and/or paranoia. They know all the rest of us are crazy and pretty soon they will start wondering about each other.
By sid December 8, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Comparing the Empire State Building and WTC crashes is ridiculously naive. You have different building designs/constructions, different types of fuels, vastly different amounts of fuel, vastly different weights of aircraft, and vastly different speeds at impact (that’s a guess, but very likely a good one). A B-25 carried, at best, a little less than 1,000 gallons of fuel (more likely in the range of 600-700), while a 767 carries almost 24,000 gallons. Different fuels, as well. A 767 can weigh more than 10 times a B-25, and I would imagine the B-25 was probably not going as fast as the 767s. These factors make comparisons bordering on retarded. Asking questions is fine (to a certain extent), but make sure your questions are actually valid. And don’t ignore the answers when you don’t like them.
By Liberty For Me December 9, 2009 at 6:41 am
Sid..All I ever ask for is arguments and answers…But mostly what I get is called names by the likes of CNSYD and others who wants the socialist status quo to grow…Who is so fixated on people knowing he was in the Navy he cant see straight.He calls everybody asking questions paranoid while thinking terrorists are behind every door and wanting to blow up the world…Too ironically funny
The definition of crazy is blindly trusting the government…..It is like believing you wont get bit sticking your hand in a bag of rattlesnakes
By CNSYD December 9, 2009 at 8:24 am
LFM, I am not the one who sees conspiracy behind every event. I do not look for people and/or things that will do me in under my bed. I feel safe and secure as I KNOW what safeguards are in place to protect our country. Do I agree with every action our government takes? No. But I do understand that government is run by the majority and if I want to live here then I have to accept it. That is no different than ANY organization to which you belong unless of course you are the only member. So babble on. Similar to my challenge to people who move to SC and complain about it, I suggest you find another country in which to reside that fits your governmental concepts. Where is that place?
By sid December 9, 2009 at 8:54 am
So, does that mean you are satisfied regarding Building 7, LFM, and you no longer consider 9/11 an “inside job”? Nobody here is talking about blindly trusting the government. I think most people who have posted here have railed against something regarding the government at some point. But you seem to equate taking any position in support of what government has done as being blind support, and dirtbooger is convinced the fed gov has been part of a vast conspiracy since at least the Civil War. That’s where I draw the line.
Personally, I think anyone who can believe such a conspiracy is definitely paranoid, and possibly a little (or maybe a lot) crazy. As I said before, in order for such a conspiracy to function for so long would require probably tens-of-thousands (and now, maybe hundreds-of-thousands, or more) of people to be involved. The recruiting and training program alone would be mind-bogglingly complex.
Oh, and don’t get so worried about insults. I think you can throw them around pretty well, too, so let’s not be hypocritical.
By Liberty For Me December 9, 2009 at 9:41 am
Sid….I never believed either way…just want answers to valid questions…Like most who question 9/11..most just want answers.
Seems soon as you ask a question you are attacked…That is the opposite of what our republic is supposed to be…Your supposed to have free speech.You can question God…piss on a picture of Christ and its art.But question motives of government and you should be put in the nut house…You don’t see something wrong in that scenario???
CNSYD Likes what our country has become…and as I don’t see it as a written down conspiracy…Our country has lost its Liberty…starting largely with Lincoln…but sped way up in this century….”Progressivism” isn’t even denied anymore.So it is not deniable..especially when it is so visible.
CNSYD wants to argue about semantics whether you want to call it Communism,Socialism,Progressivism,Fascism…Because he wants to think of himself as a Patriot for being a veteran while at the same time promoting “Progressive Ideas”….and telling me to go to another country…CNSYD>THIS IS MY FUCKING COUNTRY AND I WILL SPEAK OUT TILL ALL YOU SOCIALISTS EITHER KILL ME OR WE HAVE OUR LIBERTY BACK.
What is the difference between Marxism, Communism, and Socialism? These days, not much. In the beginning the main difference was disagreement on how to achieve their common goal of complete control of a Nation’s people, resources and wealth.
The ideologies melded over the years and even though the movement for world domination suffered many setbacks, Communism did not die with the fall of the Berlin wall and the rending of the iron curtain.The word Communism became so unpopular the name changed to Socialism, then Liberalism, then to Progressive. They have even been somewhat open about what they are doing, the Communist goals for the United States were entered into the Congressional record in June, 1963. They stopped using bombs and tanks to conquer and pillage, their formula now is, I. I. D. I. N. Infiltrate, Indoctrinate, Demoralize, Intimidate then follows Normalization. Infiltration started in the U.S. in earnest in the late 1940’s. Indoctrination began in earnest in the 1960’s and like CNYSD has shown.It has been effective.But the battle isnt over.
By stop asking December 9, 2009 at 9:51 am
The only thing you need to watch is the news on the major networks and some of the cable ones, if you can afford cable TV. I would suggest Fox News to get the truth. People who question the government are insane. There are no conspiracies out there. If there was any media conspiracy, we would have heard about it on the news or read about it in the paper. Stop saying that journalists are in cahoots with anyone regarding a conspiracy. They went to school to learn to uncover the truth, no matter what the results were and they would readily give up their money, position and life or livelihood to uncover the truth. Look at people like Wolf Blitzer, Tim Russert and others on NPR and the other major networks. Do you think for a moment that they would hesitate to tell the truth about anything, even if it cost them their job and profession? Of course they would do the right thing in every situation! They have integrity and are champions for the truth. That’s why they’re on the air in the first place. People need someone they can trust to give them the news. I would tell you about that passport surviving the crash and being found at the site, but you wouldn’t believe me so I’m not going to tell you because you can not prove that it was just placed there to be found so stop saying that. I would also tell you about all the other questions you asked but didn’t address and it’s not because I don’t have an answer and would rather isolate and call you into question for asking so don’t say that!! So there. If you continue to bring this stuff up I will continue to call you crazy, in need of mental help and delusional, but it’s not because I can’t answer your questions and you can not prove that so it’s not true, either.
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 10:02 am
Sid look at the Oklahoma City bombing, part of that structure was blown away and the remaining structure did not completely colapse within its footprint at the rate of gravity. Also the first bombing of the WTC 1994 with the van in the parking garage which was at the base of the tower did not make the buiding fall at the rate of gravity. I keep stressing the rate of gravity because for that to happen every peice of structural support had to give way in a sequence that allows for free fall speed. Free fall is what we witnessed with building 7 and the twin towers. I also find it hard to believe that just collapsing would cause the twin towers to turn to duse mid air. You may be that gullible but I am not! Then theres the CCTV tower in China that was completly ingulfed by flames which did not collapse. Sid if you cant bring nothing new to the table give it up I had already posted a link where CNSYD got his ass handed to him when he tride to debate me before, when he clamed to be an engineer. Now I find out he’s a shrimping boat captian.
Now just let me be clear on one thing, I do support a strong national defence, but I do not support our being part of an impire, policing the world and meddling a lot of other nations buisness! Thats why we are hated around the world. Lets put this in prespective I own a lot of guns but I would never go shoot up my neighbors house but it is a good deterrent for anyone wanting to shoot up mine! Thats all the military we need, just enough to be a deterent. We should try to be friends with all countries and let them handle their on affairs.
One other thing, I have a debunking for your debunking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbY5_qtz83M
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 10:21 am
One other thing sid their are a f’n lot of people asking the same questions we are, that is enough reason to hear more debate in the media and government on the collapse and coincidences about who was where, and who was doing what! To many facts never made it into the spotlite. Any questions asked has been pushed out of the spotlite and ridiculed, called crazy what ever. Are we just supposed to just sit back and let the beast run its self or are we supposed to be a government of the people by the people. How can this be any thing other than a damn conspiricy?
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 10:45 am
Alot of questions should get answered tonight @10 on tru TV. Search your programing guide for the channel. Jesse Ventura will be hosting the show. He is a real Patriot btw!
By sid December 9, 2009 at 12:36 pm
LFM, the reason you get “attacked” for asking 9/11 questions is that these questions have been answered ad nauseum. Why are you asking questions that have already been answered? If you haven’t done your researchm, then shame on you. It took me all of 45 seconds to find the link I posted. Why are you not aware that your question has been addressed? Or are you, and you just don’t like the answer. For a guy who just wants to ask questions, you have a funny way of not looking for the answers. That, to me, sounds like someone who just wants to stir the pot for the sake of getting people riled up. Maybe I’m wrong, but like I said, Building 7 has been addressed. All of the conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 have been addressed, and by better minds (on these particular subjects) than you, me, or dirtbooger.
People convinced there is a conspiracy, however, just won’t rest. They thumb their noses at the scientific process. They get into their investigation already concluding there is a conspiracy, then looking for information to support that theory. They intentionally ignore anything that doesn’t support the conclusion at which they already arrived.
As for your Oklahoima argument, dirtbooger, see my post destroying your little conspiracy pal’s mention of the Empire State Building. You cannot compare the reactions of different structures, designed differently, with different materials, subjected to different catastrophic events. It is just ludicrous to try to make any sort of link.
Oh, and since you bring up numbers, there are also lots of f’n people who deny the Holocaust. There are also lots of f’n people who think Elvis is still alive. There are also probably a few people who think you are nuts. What’s your point? One out of three may get you into Cooperstown, but it’s an F on most grading scales. Questions may be answered tonight, but if that loon Ventura is involved, I can virtually guarantee the answers will be wrong.
Oh, and yes, you are gullible. You’ve swallowed the 9/11 conspiracies without questioning them, so you are clearly gullible.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Oh, and LFM, once you establish a government, you automatically lose a certain amount of liberty. The goal is to keep such losses as small as possible, and within reason. You and I likely agree on most areas where we’d like to see less government intrusion. I just don’t think it’s part of a grand conspiracy.
But if you want to go back to when we started losing freedoms here, after the Constitution, try the Whiskey Rebellion, if not earlier.
By CNSYD December 9, 2009 at 1:05 pm
LFM and dirtbogger, I have a license to practice engineering, do you? When and where did you take your courses in statics, dynamics, strength of materials, etc. Oh I know those courses are all part of the grand conspiracy. I never knew that when Teddy Roosevelt ran for President as the nominee of the Progressive Party he was really a Communist. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if it doesn’t fit your simplistic little boxes. dirtbogger please remind me where I “got my ass handed to me”. That is your response to anyone who does buy in to your far out conspiracy ideas. dirtbogger you really need to use dictionary.com or perhaps you consider proper spelling some sort of conspiracy. LFM, I only had your best interests at heart. I hate that you dislike this country so much. I thought a change of venue would suit you better. Now where is that heaven on earth that you seek? You can rail all you want to about this country but you are so far in the minority that you are just noise in the system.
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 1:23 pm
975 architectural and engineering professionals
and 5470 other supporters including A&E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation. http://www.ae911truth.org/
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
and this one is one of the more significant
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
As you see plenty of smart people are on my side, and you are right I do want to stir up shit and get people pissed off and most importantly get them to my side. We are a growing movement and I hope it scares the damn daylites out of you Sid! Yes I am convinced of a conspiricy, no I wasent always. I hated Muslems as much as the next guy but when I looked into what the people who I called at the time nutjobs were saying, their claims were backed up by overwhelmingly more facts than the official verison. After someone has looked at both versions sceptically I do not know how anyone can go back to the same mind set, I think its just too hard for people to believe that some one with in our government to do something to get the masses to support foregn conquest. Let me remind you that during the civil war shots were ordered fired against fellow country men to get the war started, and the revolutionary war the same scenero. Yes people can be that cold blooded to their on countrymen. I some what believe that Sid has looked at the evidence, but for him to except it for what it is, it shatters his world view, and he would be terrorfied to have to pick up the peices. In short his denile is fear driven — he is a pussy!
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Whiskey Rebellion
damn it Sid we do agree on something!
CNYSD would have been in favor of the tax
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 1:37 pm
CNYSD anyone can go on line and look at courses offered to obtain a degree. Your not worth spell check and I know I am not the best speller or use the best grammer, but are you really that anal about spelling. This a comment blog we are not trying write book here.
By Liberty For Me December 9, 2009 at 2:34 pm
By sid…As in sciense,you should never say anything is definative…I just want to weigh all angles.Because I do not say for sure one way or the other does not make me crazy.You closing the book on it makes it look like you just want do not want to even entertain the thought of any kind of planned sinister action except what the government says.On the surface..I watched the towers fall live on TV and my first though was that it looked really weird..even under tremendous weight you would expect one side to fall a little faster than the other..One beam hold on longer…one rivet hang up ..or one of the buildings to fall to one side.To me it just seems odd they just kind of emplode perfectly…I would like to see a scale model re-enactment…that would make me feel a lot better about it….
As far as giving up liberty…There is not much we NEED to give up..
By sid December 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I really couldn’t care less what you believe, dirtbooger, since I think you’ve got several screws loose. In fact, the idea that you agree with me on the Whiskey Rebellion makes me rethink my views on that.
You’ve got websites that support your twisted view, and I’ve got websites that support the correct view. That’s just the way it is with any “controversy,” especially in the age of the wild, wild, ‘net. (This isn’t really a controversy as much as it is a bunch of people who are desperate to “prove” 9/11 was part of a vast, global, timeless conspiracy, in spite of the overwhelming facts contradicting them.)
When people like you throw out red herrings like Oklahoma City and the Empire State Building, then get their hats handed to them with an unassailable rebuttal, you quickly drop the subject and move on to other thoughts of pure fantasy. Please, explain to me how the WTC and OKC/CCTV (or ESB, even though you didn’t bring it up) events are even remotely comperable for the purposes of this discussion. Oh, I forgot that OKC has its own conspiracy mythology, so that’s comperable, I guess. But from an engineering perspective, explain how these vastly different structures that experienced vastly different catastrophic events are even remotely comperable. Or has no website yet been developed to help you with your ridiculous statement?
By Liberty For Me December 9, 2009 at 2:41 pm
YES I KNOW I NEED TO LEARN HOW TO TYPE AND PROOF READ….SORRY..SOMETIMES I AM IN A HURRY…………..
By Liberty For Me December 9, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Sid ..I have to agree with you on the OK bombing Etc…It is a different size and type building…it was blown up from the ground..
It makes no sense in a comparison…..But like I said,I would like to see a scale reenactment to prove things can fall that precisely
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Oh boo hoo sid— yes diffrent designs, same traditonal steel frame supported concrete construction meathod with building 7 and the others, towers 1 and 2 were of a new overengineered construction. So well built that I think that the 94 bombing at the base of the tower would have brought it down if it had been of traditonal design, just not at the rate of gravity because you would need to eliminate support throughout the building for that to happen as we saw on 9-11. That was funny though about the whisky rebellion I got a kick out of your comment!
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 3:28 pm
My point of the Oklahoma City building was by the picture that sid posted links to with a gash down the side of building 7 he was trying to imply that could make fall uniformly at the rate of gravity. If that were the case the whole Oklahoma Federal building would have been on the ground. Building 7 should still be standing today.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm
You clearly have no clue about engineering and the differences involved in the events that these structures experienced, dirtbooger.
Of course, I imagine you sit around amused fairly regularly. It goes with my impression of you. BTW, I guess your views on the Whiskey Rebellion mean that you feel GW was all part of this Great Conspiracy. So, by your reasoning, this country has been under the control of the Conspiracy since it began. Maybe you’re part of the Conspiracy. Perhaps you were set up to sound just crazy enough to lead people to believe the Conspiracy is all fantasy. Brilliant. Now I’m starting to believe.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I’m starting to get a little more faith in you, LFM. Actually, I probably lumped you into dirtbooger’s camp a little prematurely. Looking back, I guess you really don’t go into much in the way of conspiracies. Your concerns seem to be based on reality. I may not necessarily agree with your perspective, but I can at least understand why you hold your views.
Like I said before, I have no problem with people asking questions. In my opinion, though, the questions surrounding 9/11 have been addressed for several years. There’s nothing new that I’ve seen, and nothing that has led me to believe the conspiracy thories. Unfortunately, conspiracy theories tend to detract, in my opinion, from getting real stuff done to defend our liberties. I’m still waiting for Operation Vampire Killer 2000 to unfold.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 4:16 pm
I wasn’t trying to imply anything, dirtbooger, regarding Building 7 and OKC. You may infer what I meant, but you’d be wrong. The link I provided was to a page that exposes the conspiracy myths surrounding Building 7. Read the whole thing, don’t just look at a picture and try to decide what I meant or what it means. The entire site exposes all the conspiracy myths regarding 9/11. I’m guessing you’ve either refused to read it, or read it and decided it was all part of the Grand Conspiracy. That fits neatly into your worldview.
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 4:16 pm
What ever you want to believe Sid, it makes no difrence. It does not take much to constitute a conspiracy.
con·spir·a·cy (kn-spîr-s)
n. pl. con·spir·a·cies
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 4:48 pm
I guess dirtbooger can use a dictionary, CNSYD. And now he’s apparently arguing semantics, LFM. My, how the worm has turned.
By dirtbogger December 9, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Sid, I would like your take on the climate gate e-mails, would they fall under the catagory as a conspiricy. What about the media whining about global warming for almost 2 decades and until now we have not heard any skeptical views by them. It was generally excepted as fact until recently.
All this for the sake of a global tax called Cap and Trade. My opinion is the true top teer elite are not loyal to any one nation, yes globalist. They set up organizations like the CFR Trilateral commission UN, push trade agreements like NAFTA and ect. Things that seem to harm our nation get passed and everyone see’s it but seem powerless to stop it. Do you want to see this country be the penical of freedom and prosperity once again, or keep sliding back towards 3rd world status while the elite keep moving their assets else where. I think we all can agree that alot has been detramental to our country the past few decades and I believe we all want to see it get better. If it does not change course what is the point in fighting any war on forgin soil?
By CNSYD December 9, 2009 at 5:04 pm
dirtbogger, I have no need to look at “on line” courses as I have an engineering degree from an ABET institution (something you probably have no clue as to what that is). I looked at the list of so called experts who signed off on your conspiracy theory. Immediately you have to subtract all those who are not professionally licensed and who do not possess ABET degrees. Eliminate the architects as they are NOT structural engineers. Then the few names that would be left would have to be voir dired to determine if they are qualified to be considered an expert witness. All this assumes of course that they are real people. IRT your spelling and grammar, those factors affect the arguments you put forth as it shows ignorance. And Jesse Ventura. PLEASE!! You probably think wrestling is not fake. As regards whiskey, its harm far outweighs its “benefits” so I say tax it to death. I do not want my health and auto insurance rates to rise based on alcohol abuse.
By sid December 9, 2009 at 5:44 pm
As I said before, dirtbooger, I accept certain conspiracy theories. Those would be the ones that have what I consider real proof, and have not been soundly refuted. In regard to the climate e-mail fiasco, yes, it reeks of conspiracy. Time will tell if it truly is one.
Yes, most of the vast, global, timeless conspiracy theories involve the Trilateralists, CFR, and UN. Not to mention the Bildebergers, Illuminati, Free Masons, etc. I don’t buy into those arguments, though, as they just don’t hold water, and would require far too many to have stayed silent for far too long. Just because somebody proposes a ban on guns doesn’t mean it’s all part of some nefarious disarmament conspiracy. Just because we went off the gold standard doesn’t mean there is a deeper movement to disrupt our economy to make enslavement far easier.
However, CNSYD, the Whiskey Rebellion had nothing to do with the “harm” whiskey causes. It had to do with reducing war debt. And just because some may abuse whiskey/alcohol, doesn’t mean those who enjoy it responsibly should be saddled with paying for the misuse of others. You think your rates will go down because of a tax? When has that happened? You can’t tax it out of existence, or do you forget the little experiment called Prohibition? Even if you could, what is the next source of revenue the govt. will look to to take up the slack?
I may not be an absolutist, like ‘booger and LFM, but I am a libertarian. I likely share (unfortunately, perhaps) a great many of the views held by dirtbooger and LFM. I’m just not a conspiracy nut. I’m probably something like LFM-lite. He doesn’t seem quite as conspiracy-minded as I thought.
By CNSYD December 9, 2009 at 6:40 pm
sid, I have no problem with “social” drinking. It is those who abuse it or drive while drunk. I just don’t want to have to pay for their stupidity. Same with smoking. Obviously health care costs are affected by smoking which by the pool system of insurance drives rates up. Do taxes work? Yes they do. I have seen smoking on the decline since the prices have gone up. People have actually figured out smoking is not necessary. Now if alcohol and tobacco can be consumed and the ONLY harm it does is to the user, then I don’t care what the user does. Just don’t expect me to support the consequences of your stupidity.
By stop asking December 9, 2009 at 7:17 pm
The Whiskey Rebellion was about the only way the farmers were able to make any money. It didn’t seem right to go after poor farmers who had no money while the man who lived on Mount Vernon was living in the lap of luxury. Take more from the rich. Those people hardly had shoes. They had a choice to let their grain rot or they could convert it into alcohol and actually make some money for the time and labor. If you can stop getting hung up on how the buildings came crashing down for a minute, which is a legitimate question, can you focus for a minute on why they were damaged in the first place? 17 people who did not have their names on the passenger lists of the missing planes. The accused were legally in the country. The response was to build a Berlin-type wall on the northern and especially the southern border to keep out all them illegal aliens. Why should the people be fenced in because of what someone else did? Why spend a lot of money to build a Berlin type wall when that wasn’t the reason the accused people were in the USA? Why did the Patriot Act get passed so quickly and it’s used against the American people? If we are to believe the official story, the authorities were on to the accused. Why has no one ever had to answer for not doing anything about the August 6 report that warned of something terrible? Why are people commonly treated like crap at airports because they’re using their constitutional right to travel? Even if the Constitution is just a piece of paper, people have a right to fly or go where they want without being treated and herded like cattle. No one has explained how a building is taken down by a huge crash and so much more fuel is there, yet a passport is impervious to fuel, flame, explosion and is found on top of so much debris. No one asks why everyone is being punished by having your mail and telephone conversations spied upon. According to many reports, over 1,000,000 people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. I won’t dare ask how many more have to die before the score will be settled. I sure won’t ask why there is war in Iraq, since they had nothing to do with any of those buildings. I’d best stop now, or I shall surely be flamed for asking questions. No more questions from me because I am a solid South Carolinian. God bless America, land that I love, stand beside her, and guide her….Oh, I wish I were in the land of cotton. Old times there are not forgotten, look away! look away! look away! Dixie land
By Liberty for me December 9, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Sid …You know taxes work.So lets raise taxes on food so that we will see obesity go down.I am glad we dont have a dumbass tax…CNSYD would ruin our country in a day subsidizing his moronic thinking
By CNSYD December 9, 2009 at 10:45 pm
LFM, you refuse to explain to me why I must subsidize drunks and lung cancer which could have been easily prevented.
By Liberty for me December 9, 2009 at 11:30 pm
You should not have to…now your getting it..DUH
By sid December 10, 2009 at 12:23 am
I know lots of smokers, and even more ex-smokers. None of the exes have ever told me they quit because of the cost, and none of the currents have ever indicated they will quit if the cost gets too high. The exes quit because of health reasons, or a new relationship (boy/girlfriend, spouse, child) dictated quitting. The ones who haven’t quit keep saying they should, and will, for health reasons. Sure, they bitch about the cost, but they’re not quitting because of it. The decline in smoking is more likely due to the hassle it has become to smoke. That, and the fact that smokers get it driven into their skulls on a regular basis how unhealthy it is. Where are there still plenty of smokers? Among the poor. Many will skip a meal if it means another pack of cigarettes. Not a generalization. I know plenty of affluent, middle-class, and poor smokers.
But there is an unlimited amount of behavior we are forced to subsidize. Hell, right now one of the hot topics is abortions funded by tax dollars. Explain why I should have to pay for irresponsible sexual habits? As LFM points out, what about obesity? That’s a bigger drain than smoking, so what do we do about that? The real answer is, don’t force everyone to pay for the mistakes of others. The issue is obviously more complex than that simple solution, but that’s where we should start. Not, how can we make sure everyone is taken care of? We can’t afford it, no matter how much you tax. But that’s a whole different subject, which I’m sure will be touched on in the near future.
By Liberty for me December 10, 2009 at 7:29 am
It is not that complicated…I admit I over simplify,but the meat of the problem is always the same issue>What are the things people complain about the most? Education , Health Care and retirement…is it a coincidence that government runs all over them??NO…Issues that had minor problems that could have been easily addressed without government.
The government worsened and added to any problems 100 fold….
The first step is to understand and setup a replacement for all the crap the government has established..then remove government.
I know most have been brainwashed into relying on the government now..and that’s what they want.Dependency is power.You think the black vote for democrats is about freedom???Its about getting a welfare check..food stamps..thinking the democrats have their best interest…at the same time they are handing out food stamps they are increasing costs of everything with massive inflation.The poor people don’t understand they are getting free food,but their electric bill went up 400%..Just like CNSYD will give up his liberty because the government has convinced him it is to protect him…same thing..Control.Is it a “Conspiracy”??In a way ,in a way not.There is mostly greed and narcissism involved I believe…gotta go will add to later
By dirtbogger December 10, 2009 at 8:52 am
Sid I my self do not by in to it all as you suggest I even have to stop at people like Alex Jones. I give you credit you seem well versed on conspiricy theory, are you sure your not a nut job? Any how Sid just to let you know I did go through all that I could find that refutted the controlled demolition of all 3 buildings after I had researched the controlled demolition. Like I said I wanted to prove the nut jobs wrong but I could not. I was just waking up at the time and I thought they were doing more harm than good for the Liberty movement. So I went and watched their vidieos so I would know how to better debate them. My god, after I had researched it, I dont know now how I could have missed this all this time. It made so much more since than all the TV pundantry I had seen in my life. I do not wear my 9-11 truth on my sleeves away from this blog, I do wear my liberty though, I realize that not every one is ready for the truth about 9-11. But he who has ears let him hear! BTW Sid you dont sleep much do you?
By sid December 10, 2009 at 11:14 am
I’ve been involved with conspiracy theories for at least 15 years. The vast majority of the ones I’ve investigated I’ve found to be lacking in the facts necessary to convince me they are little more than paranoia. Admittedly, I haven’t done my due dilligence on Marilyn Monroe, but I’ve gotta draw the line somewhere. It’s not my job, just something that interests me.
As for sleep, I get a solid 4-5 every night. Any more, and the monsters in my closet will surely detect weakness, and eat me.
By dirtbogger December 10, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Must me s— eating monsters, Chil I am kidding
By CNSYD December 10, 2009 at 1:04 pm
LFM, yes I am convinced the government does protect me as it does you. After spending decades in the defence establishment I can tell you that you are protected 24/7. I guess you are ready to give that up. If so, be sure to change the Constitution.
By sid December 10, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Actually, you’re almost right. That’s the end where they start, and slowly work their way up. Horrible way to go, or so I was told by my cat. She saw them take my imaginary twin brother, when I was five, and she never lied to me before or since, even after she died. Thus, 4-5 hours every night until I can afford a hyperbaric chamber. They don’t like the high-pressure environment (according to the cat).
By sid December 10, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Many of the problems with the government schemes I oppose stem from the control issue, as well as greed and narcissism, as you point out LFM. But a whole lot also stems from stupidity and a simple desire to get reelected. Perhaps stupidity is too harsh (although I’m sure many here would not think so), and it’s more laziness, or looking for the “easy” answers (which are generally the wrong answers). Whatever sells to the masses, like “free” health care.
But the stupidity argument is also one that convinces me there are no grand conspiracies. People in the government, in general, are just not bright enough to keep such schemes operating for years, decades, or centuries (as some feel) without being uncovered. Watergate was a relativley simple scheme, as well as countless others that have been exposed. Of course, some will say that, since the government (or individuals within it) has done secret things that were exposed, it’s only a matter of time before these other conspiracies will be exposed. The sheer complexity of most of the wild conspiracies I discount as paranoia, however, just go well beyond what I think any group of even the most brilliant conspirators capable of executing, let alone politicians or government drones.
By Liberty for me December 10, 2009 at 3:16 pm
How many politicians are not narcissists?…They sure don’t to it for patriotic duty…though most claim to.I don’t know what you can exactly claim to be conspiracy.I think that communists have been infiltrating and changing our government for a century…Is that a conspiracy? Probably not by definition as there is no set plan.But an on going agenda none the less.
What do you contribute the completely backwards financial moves the Fed and president and most of Washington keep making.?..Do they not care if we loose our country as long as they can postpone it till they are out of office?…I think that is all about greed…It is no coincidence all of the Goldman sacs people in the Whitehouse…
I kind of welcome hard times and maybe a total dollar destruction if that’s what it takes to get our liberty back.Seems hard times are all people will wake up to.I have been talking about this stuff since Harry Browne was running for president..Not sure how old that makes me.I kept asking my friends why nobody was doing or saying anything…It took this housing collapse to do it.
I still think the 9-11 thing has way too many coincidences not to have something sinister somewhere…Not even a piece of a black box???come on?
You really believe that?
By sid December 10, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Yes, I do. Why would the government hide the black boxes? That would only lead to more questions. It would make far more sense, if there were a true conspiracy, to say they were recovered, but damaged beyond use. The government would have complete control of the boxes, were they uncovered, so they could just destroy the information if there was something incriminating. It just doesn’t make any sense to create an unnecessary controversy (missing boxes) when you are trying to cover up a gigantic conspiracy? These masterminds came up with this conspiracy, but blew this simple little detail? The boxes were recovered from the other sites, so why hide these ones?
By CNSYD December 10, 2009 at 5:49 pm
sid, you are interjecting logic.
By Liberty for me December 10, 2009 at 10:39 pm
So is it they found no evidence of a plane at all??? Just like there wasn’t one?Because if they found one piece you would think the one thing that was built to be indestructible would be the one thing they would find…especially when you have 4 of them.I think the “you see what you want to see” thing goes both ways.I think you are being dishonest with yourself with common logic or at least with such an adamant stance…I will at least say I don’t know,but it does seems odd and illogical
By Liberty for me December 10, 2009 at 10:47 pm
I forgot to answer your question…I dont know why they would.Maybe because there was something sinister on it?Or that they did not send the air force sooner, when thay had plenty of time.Saying they were not found seems to be answer enough for you.So that would be what they were counting on everyone believeing…Besides its easier just to call everybody paranoid than to explain it
By dirtbogger December 11, 2009 at 8:40 am
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
here is a PDF of operation north woods (Declassified) this proves that people are capable of planing 9-11 type events within the military. Personaly I think the planes were overriden by remote control. We have been able to put a monkey in space since the 60′s you know. Beleive what you want but nothings going to change my mind at this point I have researched this event too much! Bottem line is the offical version does not hold water when all the facts are known!
By sid December 11, 2009 at 9:14 am
Again, it’s Occam’s razor. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding finding a plane. They found, and identified, pieces of the two planes at WTC. A point I think you are misreading is the idea that these black boxes are indestructible. They are not. I think you are also missing the point of just how much debris there was. There was likely lots of material missed, just due to the sheer volume. And why would it need to be air force personnel at the scene? Feds are feds, in the grand conspiracy, and they were on the ground the whole time.
So, here are your options. You believe what you want.
First, there is a grand conspiracy, which has operated for perhaps as long as centuries, and it basically runs the world. It has been conspiring against all people not in the conspiracy for an unknown reason, but recently, it decided to invent a terrorist attack on the U.S. While plotting this thing out, though, which must have taken thousands of man-hours (if the conspirators are even human), they forgot to account for the black boxes on the two most prominant planes involved. Even though the world has become accustomed to the idea of finding airplane black boxes to find out what happened in air disasters, they just forgot this critical point. But they did do what was necessary for the other two planes involved. Curious, but completely explainable by “it’s just all part of the conspiracy.” And although they could have “discovered” the black boxes, spirited them off to their secret govt. lab, erased the incriminating evidence, then produced the boxes saying “data lost or irretrieveable,” they decided, instead, to say “no boxes.” Of course, this response was guaranteed to increase the talk of their grand conspiracy, but that’s OK, because the “easiest” solution to dispelling conspiracy theories is not to cover all your tracks, but to just call the theorists crazy, because that always makes people go away.
Second, terrorists plotted this attack, executed it, and the black boxes for two of the four planes involved were either destroyed, or misidentified and carted off as debris.
You can sit around and say you are just asking questions, but at some point you have to start accepting answers. Like I said before, 9/11 has been discussed ever since, well, 9/11. Every conceivable question has beev asked and answered. Stop asking questions, and decide which answers you believe. I’m not aware of one conspiracy point that has not been addressed. So now you, ‘booger, and all the others “just asking questions” need to state what it is you believe, or at least stop asking the questions. If you don’t like the answers because they don’t fit into your conspiracy model, too bad. They are the only answers you are going to get, because they are the only answers there are. Admittedly, some have mutliple choice answers, because the facts are simply unknown, but none of the answers involve “vast, global, timeless conspiracy.”
By Liberty for me December 11, 2009 at 9:47 am
I know they are not indestructible…my point is they are made to be as indestructible as possible.The rest of the plane insn’t.They had to have been there..in whole or part.Were they carried off in debris???possibly.But I dont belive they were destroyed(melted into a pile of metal).If they were carried of I think that would be terribly irresponsible dont you?….and I have no were said there was a vast conspiracy.But I do think if the defense dept was sleeping on the job and did not want to take the blame they would have let the boxes disappear.I hope you are not trying to say our government does not do this kind of stuff…what about operation ajax??…gulf of tonkin??.
By sid December 11, 2009 at 11:17 am
No, dirtbooger, the bottom line is the conspiracy theories don’t hold water. Of course, you’ve decided you know what you know, and have even implied that no amount of research on the subject will change your mind. On this subject, your mind is made up, so you are clearly just someone who wants to believe in conspiracy.
As for Operation Northwoods, it was thought up by a handful of nuts (maybe even just one), it was rejected, and the nut/s were removed. The Kennedy Admin. said it wanted a reason to get involved with overthrowing Castro, but it had no intention of going the route suggested in Northwoods.
Operation Ajax, as well as the Gulf of Tonkin incident, are vastly different from 9/11. Nobody disputes we were involved in overthrowing foreign governments, as in Ajax. Yes, the operations are kept secret, as to do them overtly would be foolish. Would you rather we had every single government operation publicly declared? Would you have preferred the details of D-Day to have been published in the papers before it was executed, for complete transparency?
Gulf of Tonkin, on the other hand, involved false reports of an attack to get us more involved in Vietnam. Wrong to do? Certainly. Evidence that every government “conspiracy” must now be considered as probably true? Certainly not.
Neither incident even remotely comes close to the idea that our government orchestrated and executed the 9/11 attacks. Neither incident even remotely comes close to the sheer complexity of the 9/11 “conspiracy.” Arguing that the government did secret things in the past (or plotted them, even though they were soundly rejected) means that the government is responsible for 9/11 is an incredible leap in logic, and is just irresponsible.
Basically, you’re saying that, since we know sharks have attacked and killed people in the water, every time a swimmer disappears it must be a shark attack. Since we know drunk drivers have caused auto accidents, every auto accident must be because of a drunk driver. No, you investigate these incidents, as 9/11 has been investigated. You just don’t like the answers because they don’t fit into your view that the government we have today is inherently evil (or incompetent), and always looking for ways to subjugate the people.
You stated, LFM, that a black box on an airplane is “the one thing that was built to be indestructible.” I’m glad you now clarify that statement, and admit that it can be destroyed. You don’t believe they were destroyed, though, based on what? Your own gut feeling? If they were mistakenly carted off as debris, I wouldn’t call that “irresponsible.” I’d call it an understandable mistake. The WTC site was chaos, with far more debris than probably any of the folks there had ever seen. One black box at the Pentagon, according to reports, was almost carried off as debris, until a govt. official (yup, a government official) caught a glimpse, and thought it looked a little familiar. That’s how damaged it was, and the Pentagon pales in comparison to the destructive forces in play at the WTC.
Again, finding the boxes and pretending they didn’t exist makes far less sense than finding the boxes, eliminating incriminating evidence, then saying they got no data. If, of course, there is some sort of conspiracy. And why didn’t they do the same thing to the boxes for the other two planes? Why would information on the WTC boxes be incriminating, but not the other two. Again, it defies logic.
The problem with all you conaspiracy folks is that you can’t even get your stories straight. Dirtbooger thinks remote control (in spite of the other two planes, and the countless phone calls from the hijacked planes, and the recordings regarding Flight 93), and you think the govt. is just trying to cover up a blown assignment of defending against terrorist attacks. So, you don’t think it’s a “vast” conspiracy, just a little one? Such a cover-up would, indeed, be a “vast” conspiracy, LFM. It just would not be quite as “vast” as dirtbooger’s.
By dirtbogger December 11, 2009 at 11:48 am
How ever vast, it is what it is, and sid you just wrote that North Woods was made up by nuts, some way people like that got that high of a position and put it on the table, evedently they thought they could get away with it then. Kennedy wasent cold blooded enough, Bush has demonstrated he is with the illegal invasion of Iraq that has lead to the death of hundreds of thousands. As far as investagation there was never an open investagation. It was picked and chosen what we got to hear. Come on the most heavaly defended building in the building (the Pentagon) got hit by a plane in an unoccupied part of the building (closed for renovation) after two buildings had already been hit earlier in the morning. And where is all the vidieo servalence. I have only saw one vidieo on youtube of the attack that showed a plane that apeared to be superimposed for one frame. Something smells like bullshit!
By Liberty for me December 11, 2009 at 12:03 pm
I am not saying it is anything ..you are.I was just answering your question what possible reason they would do it.The truth is we will probably never know.I don’t think there is iron clad proof to convince me either way…Your “how do you prove a negative”theory always holds up..just like the belief in God.But the belief that the government is not willing to kill its own is naive..Why are people so numb to people dying as long as they have a green uniform on…You think that really makes a difference?.It would not to the conscience of many….
Do you think that operation Ajax is still being felt today?…Look at how many get riled about the Civil War and its been almost 150 years.
By sid December 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Yes, dirtbooger, there are nuts everywhere, as evidenced by this thread, and they can sometimes find their way into positions of high power. Usually, they get incovered, as in the case of Northwoods. No Kennedy wasn’t cold-blooded enough to allow Northwoods, but he was coldblooded enough to allow the Bay of Pigs. Bush, along with the majority of people at the time, supported invading Iraq. That was done publicly, however, even if there was some misinformation (intentional or otherwise) involved. Bay of Pigs was done secretly. So the argument would make more sense that Kennedy was more conspirator than Bush, and more coldblooded, leaving the folks in Cuba hung out to dry with no support.
But it appears you believe planes hit the WTC, but a plane did not hit the Pentagon? Explain. As for videos, what video surveillance are you talking about? Are there videos out there you think have been suppressed? From what cameras? I’ve seen the video to which you refer, and while it is of poor quality, and hard to determine, it looks more like an airplane than, what, a missile? Why use a missile here, and airplanes at WTC? And why all the 757 wreckage? Is that what they are making our missiles out of these days? And what about the black boxes recovered? All material planted, I presume, and virtually instantaneously? How convenient for your conspiracy theory.
LFM, I’m back to wondering about you. At least ‘booger has the courage to state he frimly believes in the “conspiracy.” You, on the other hand, claim to be just asking questions. In reality, there are two types of conspiracy folks. One, like ‘booger, come out and say “CONSPIRACY!” The other, like you, won’t admit you believe in the “conspiracy,” and try to claim you are just asking questions. As I’ve said before, the questions have been asked and answered countless times. Nothing new has shown up for at least a couple, if not a few, years. So, you can either accept the rational explanations to the conspiracy crowd’s “questions,” or state you don’t accept them, and explain why.
I haven’t offered the “how you prove a negative theory.” I’ve offered Occam’s razor. But when seeking the “truth,” you don’t just offer up wild speculation and ignore the answers. As part of your question, you also need to ask why the theory you promote makes sense. As it relates to the black boxes, it simply makes no sense that the conspiracy would allow them to be recovered at two sites, but not the third. It just defies logic. Unless, of course, you are now operating under the premise that there were two or three different conspiracies, operating independently of one another. One used remote control airplanes to hit the WTC, one used a missile at the Pentagon, and one used Flight 93, with real hijackers and real citizens helping foil the attack. Yeah, that makes sense.
Don’t let your anti-government views spoil this discussion, though. The idea that some in the government may allow the deaths of civillians or military personnel to further a particular agenda is not “proof” that something was awry with 9/11. That’s not logic.
As for Ajax and the Civil War, what’s your point? Some Brits are still riled up over the Revolutionary War. So what? None of this has anything to do with 9/11. Unless you care to connect the dots. Then again, that would put you firmly in the vast, global, timeless conspiracy camp, with dirtbooger, I believe.
By dirtbogger December 11, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Yes connecting the dots seems impossible for some people to do. Sid you have not really offered up anything that proves us wrong, really all you have done is call us crazy 3 or 4 different ways and send one link with a few easly discounted rebutals. Face it 9-11 was a joint Cia / Mossad operation to get the American people to support a forgin conquest to control oil which was laid out in the PNAC document.
By CNSYD December 11, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Sid, sid, I warned you about using logic. IRT proposed operations that get killed. Though not on the “conspiracy” level worshipped by LFM and ‘bogger, military contigency planning lays out multiple solutions to a situation with all the pros and cons. Some never get further than being laid on the table as they will not fly if run up the flagpole. They can range from using WMDs to doing nothing with every iteration in between. I will give you an example of how the Brits have not forgotten the Revolution. US Embassies are preferred to be on land owned by the US so that it truly is the US when you set foot on it. This is what happened in regard to the embassy in London. The current U.S. Embassy building was constructed in the late 1950s, opening in 1960. It is a nine-storey building, of which three are below ground.
This embassy, as with many US embassies in the world, is situated on land that is not owned by the U.S. government. The land is leased from the Duke of Westminster who, when asked if he would sell the land outright, responded that he would if the U.S. Government would return the land that belonged to his family in the U.S. before it was confiscated during the Revolutionary War.
The Duke refused to grant a freehold because, from the Duke’s perspective, the U.S. Government had stolen some of his ancestor’s estates in Virginia.
By dirtbogger December 11, 2009 at 3:14 pm
military contigency planning lays out multiple solutions to a situation with all the pros and cons. Some never get further than being laid on the table as they will not fly if run up the flagpole. They can range from using WMDs to doing nothing with every iteration in between.
+
Yes, dirtbooger, there are nuts everywhere
= Did they offer Statistics with your imagenary degree CNSYD?
By dirtbogger December 11, 2009 at 3:29 pm
BTW I believe CNSYD just inadverdently valadeted every thing I have said!
By sid December 11, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I have responded to virtually every one of your claims, dirtbooger. I have offered a link to counter your links, which is a very detailed and thorough site. You have offered nothing to refute it. I have also offered logical arguments to counter your crazy-speak. Apparently, as CNSYD points out, logic is wasted on you. It has no value in your world.
Now, I don’t know if you are fully-certifiable, but as it relates to your contention about who/what was behind 9/11 (a contention you cannot support with a single fact), you are crazy. I’m not sure LFM is crazy, as even he distances himself from some of your more whacky posts. You, though, are nuts when it comes to 9/11, and you ignore every one of the points I make. My only satisfaction is knowing that the more I keep you engaged here, the less time you have to pollute the real world with your whacky ramblings.
Don’t feed the crazy with the idea that folks in the government might propose some far-out solutions for real-world problems, CNSYD. Even if they get shot down, the fact that they are suggested is clearly an indication of a conspiracy. As for the Duke, I’m sure he’ll get his family’s land back once the Great Global Conspiracy reaches its inevitable conclusion of world domination. British royalty is certainly a part of the grand scheme. Larouche made that clear when he revealed that the Queen is actually the world’s biggest drug dealer, and was behind OKC.
By sid December 11, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I’m sure you do believe that, dirtbooger. That’s what makes me think you are crazy.
By Liberty for me December 11, 2009 at 4:49 pm
My point about Ajax is…I dont believe people around the world hate us for being free.Talk about stupid statements.It had nothing to do with black boxes.This has eveything to do with OIL,,from Ajax to Iraq
My point about this is you are being just like Al Gore and global warming..”case closed..the facts are there, you are crazy for even quesioning it ” kind of logic…
I wont respond to CNYSD anymore..anyone who says they will give up all their liberty to the government is not a person of much logic.
I am really sick today and taking meds..so I am kind of floating around subjects. I should not be in front of the computer…(sorry for changing subjects mid-stream)
By CNSYD December 11, 2009 at 5:19 pm
dirtbogger, I will match my ABET-EAC accredited degree against yours any day as well as match my professional license against yours. You ready? Times up. BTW statistics are a big part of any proposed scenario. You actually believe that planners are “nuts” when they offer multiple solutions to situations? What options do you suppose Kennedy was given for the missles in Cuba? What options was Truman presented for invasion of Japan? Are you so ignorant as to think there was only one? Also I have not been able to locate “imagenary” or “valadeted” in any credible dictionary. No wonder SC State was in danger of losing its accreditation.
By CNSYD December 11, 2009 at 6:58 pm
LFM, remember the old Goldwater quote about extremism? Well it fits you when I say we have to give up “liberty” to be free when it comes to defense and you immediately apply that to every possible government plan. Show me where I said that. I have no idea where you live but I will assume the middle of the state. Why don’t you go to Shaw Air Force Base and just drive right on in. I know you don’t want to stop as that would affect your “liberty”. When you are stopped and asked what you are doing tell them you are on your way to look at the F-16s that they have which were purchased with tax money stolen from you by the government. Think that will work? I can tell you that in the old days of strategic missles at the Naval Weapons Station there were US Marines stationed in full battle gear with loaded M-16s standing by signs that said “use of deadly force has been authorized”. It would not have been wise to try to bull rush them. But alas they are just part of the conspiracy. Is giving up “liberty” for defense a too far out idea for you?
By sid December 11, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I guess I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt, LMF, and attribute that last post to the meds, because I have no idea what you’re talking about. We’ve been discussing who was behind 9/11, not the reasons for it. That’s a whole other discussion. But you are way off the mark on the Gore comparison. His issue is dealing with a wildly fluctuating situation, with countless variables, and on a scale most can’t comprehend that covers, well, all time. You and I have been discussing one incident that took a few hours from start to finish. All the information is in. Nothing is changing. The facts are the facts. And yes, case closed.
By Liberty for me December 11, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety…
Essential Liberty(patriot act)
By dirtbogger December 14, 2009 at 10:23 am
Sid, we are just not going to agree, I can show you all the facts till I am blue in the face. Buildings can not fall at the rate of gravity through the path of greatist resistance with out being imploded hit by a plane or not. You seem unable to grasp this concept. I will keep letting people know, but I am through here with you. I will present the facts and let the facts speak for themselves. Lets just let the people decide what they want to believe. All I am doig is giving them something to look at other than what they have heard in the media.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598#
By sid December 14, 2009 at 10:49 am
The buildings did not free-fall. That is a lie, and explained very thoroughly on the site I mentioned. You either did not research it, or are just willing to accept the lie, in spite of all the evidence that exposes the lie. You want to believe in a conspiracy so badly that you won’t even pretend to look at the truth without your conspiracy goggles. Perhaps if you did some slow, deep-breathing exercises you would not turn blue. Perhaps the reason for your perspective is from a lack of oxygen to the brain?
By dirtbogger December 14, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Yes they did free fall, and can you just send me a vidieo of another steel framed building that collapses due to fire at free fall speed. Fire was NIST’s explanation for towers 1, 2, & 7′s collapse. I can send many links with towers so in flamed that you can barely see the structure for the flames, and none of them collapsed! The sight you sent is a Farce that is only ment to keep people from digging deeper. Anyone without an agenda who has looked at all the data as a whole will never be convinced by the site which is only their to decieve. They only hope people will look no futher. The fact that you keep responding proves that the data that I provide is quite convincing, if its so crazy then its not worth debating, or responding to. So why the effort?
By sid December 14, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Like I said, I’m keeping you from doing more harm, and it really requires little effort. Conversely to your assertion, the sites you have provided are the real farces. They are only meant to keep the weak-minded continually asking inane questions that have already been addressed, and to feed the appetites of those ravenous for conspiracy. Keep putting your faith in the likes of Ventura. Whenever confronted with folks not willing to buy what he’s selling, he just stomps off like a petulant school boy. Perhaps he experienced too may blows to the head during his “athletic” career as a “wrestler.” Then again, he sold his profession as some sort of actual competition, when it was all just staged theatrics. Very much like his staged conspiracy theatrics. I’m sure most people get the similarities, and look at him and his followers as little more than “entertainers,” schilling a product based on fantasy. Too bad, like with “wrestling,” there are still quite a few of the simpler folks who think it’s real.
By sid December 14, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Oh, and here’s the link to the specific section debunking the free-fall lie.
http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm
By dirtbogger December 14, 2009 at 3:45 pm
You really are worried Sid, the more people who watch movies like Loose change, zero, & 9-11 blueprint for truth the more people will not by into the propaganda garbage that you are linking to. Yes I looked at the site you linked to nothing convincing there. BTW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032&ei=d6ImS7atDY-MqALq6rjLBA&q=911+blueprint+for+truth&hl=en#
9-11 Blue print for truth proves definitively that free fall did occur, and that all 3 towers were imploded. Le the people who watch the vidieos judge for themselves if I am doing harm. They need to know that there are other points of view not heard in the corperate controled media.
By sid December 14, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Well, considering less than 5% of Americans feel the U.S. was involved with, or aided in some way, the attacks, you and your fellow loons are doing a great job of getting out your message. Of course, if you ask if the Bush Admin. knew about the attacks, and let them happen, the numbers get higher, especially among the lefties (I guess you’ve got some serious lefty leanings, ‘booger).
The beauty about all you conspiracy nuts is that you all can’t agree on what is/was the actual conspiracy, so you just fling around as much nonsense as possible, knowing some of it is going to stick to some people. Was it an inside job, or did we know and do nothing? I know you promote the inside job lie, but do you get into arguments with other conspiracy nuts when they claim we just knew but did nothing? I’m sure you doubt the lunar landings, too.
Fortunately, most people don’t buy the lie of free fall, and don’t buy the lie of implosions. Some people are gullible enough to believe anything, though. Who was it who said if you repeat a lie often enough, as you and the “truthers” do, people will believe it? Great company you keep.
By dirtbogger December 15, 2009 at 8:31 am
I believe that was bush that said specifically that you have to repeat things over and over to catapult the propaganda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxnegxNEDAc
People should just watch Blue Print for Thruth And Decide for themselves who is lieing. I never saw them explain any thing technically on FOX or CNN, they just promoted the ridiculas pancake THEORY, and never addressed Building 7. As far as arguing between Truthers, generally we are all just tring to get the word out for a new independant investagation. Also do not poke fun at the less than 5% believing it was an inside job. We are a growing movement, and right now the Tea Partiers are the easiest to convert.
Now just let me go of on a tangent here as far as left leaning I really do not concider my self right or left, but as a conservative with liberal beliefs (not the so called Progressive)and yes I am using semantics here. I actually even veiw the constitution differently than most. I realize that It was written by greedy upperclassmen, and they had to change it many times due to their fear of the comman folks who was still fresh out of war who did not fight for nothing. They are the true Founding Fathers.
By sid December 15, 2009 at 9:14 am
As I implied before, you are a conspiracy nut that goes back centuries. Since, in your mind, the FFs were conspirators, this country really means nothing to you. All that most Americans believe in, to you, is a lie. I’m usually more accepting of differing viewpoints, but in your case, you really should just leave this country. You don’t believe in anything it stands for, or even anything it used to stand for. You really are useless to virtually every political ideology out there, except for those who believe in destroying this country. You apparently view the Constitution with contempt, and for that, I have nothing but contempt for you.
BTW, remember when you wrote, “I am through here with you”? Once again, you prove to be nothing more than a liar. You promote the lies of the “truthers,” and can’t even stop yourself from lying with your own rants. You are truly pathetic, but if you didn’t already know that, I think most either did, or do now.
By dirtbogger December 15, 2009 at 10:10 am
Not contempt for the constitution I am a defender of it, But I know since its inception it has had people which had contempt for it. They resented the freedom granted by it. And I stand by every thing I have said. I only want the liberty that I was taught that I had in school. If we had the freedom that was fought for, we would not even resemble the beast that we have become. But was the Constitution perfect, no but at that time period it worked. It did not grant freedom for all, Blacks were never granted freedom until after the repeal of the Jim Crow Laws, but there has been a social rift left between black and white caused by laws that have spawned hate. We have a real chance at being the freeist country in the world again due to the rate at which people are awakening to who the enomy of liberty is and has been for centries. Throughout history their have been only 2 classes of society the rich and the poor. The vast majority of today’s rich families were rich and powerful centries ago. They simply think diffrent than simple working class folks, thats where the conspiricy lies. They view our existence as only to serve the intrest of theirs and nothing more, as evidinced through the history of the whisky rebellion, and through what I was impling in my previous post about ordinary citizens being the real founding fathers and gaurenteers of liberty, not the elitist of that day. I believe you are the one who has been reveiled to be the nut, I even question your Libertarinizm at this point. What ever you say here count on me being here tit for your every tat.
By 1794 December 15, 2009 at 11:25 am
To have the liberty you were taught to have in school would make the world a better place because you would certainly have a lot more of it. In spite of some posters denouncing dirtbogger for standing up for what dirtbogger believes in, dirtbogger is compelled to defend the position he has taken. It seems unfair that anyone would try to call dirtbogger a liar for being true to his own convictions. It would seem more of a case of people being determined to provoke dirtbogger and someone just having to get the last word in or bust. To them it is unthinkable that dirtbogger be allowed to express an opinion without it being contested by someone who is determined to believe the official story. Not knowing the truth or who was or wasn’t a co-conspirator, the founding of the country was for the rich, of the rich and by the rich. You couldn’t vote unless you were 1) White, 2) Male over 21 years of age and 3) a land owner. George Washington had slaves and was going to free them after he died. But, who would take care of Martha? Jefferson had slaves and they weren’t freed during his lifetime, if they were afterwards. Women didn’t even get the vote until 1920, after having protested with much passion for it. In Florida as late as 2000, people with non-white faces were prevented from voting in the election that resulted in sElection 2000. There are probably more recent things, and now it’s easier to change the tally with machines and not paper slips. The reaction toward the farmers in the Whiskey Rebellion was ridiculous. The fact that so many wealthy families are still rich today should ring a few alarms and raise some red flags. You know yourself how often a rich man’s kids turn out to be more worthless than most people you know. In many cases, the kids of the rich man would be worse off if it weren’t for the old man’s money. No answers are claimed or implied here. Just a few observations that people will doubtless disparage while inviting those with questions to take our meds, check into the mental hospital and tune in to the O’Reilly Factor and Rush where we’ll be sure to get truth and maybe rehabilitate. It would be nice to let dirtbogger speak more and not have people pound on the bogger with all the name calling. Any more points made by dirtbogger would be appreciated. Anytime we want truth as it is spoken by those on the Fox Channel, we know where to find it. There’s always someone out to try, for right or wrong, to discredit anyone who questions what happened to the buildings and their free-fall speed and coming straight down instead of falling over. Dirtbogger is not going to quit posting as long as he is able to express his opinion. A lot of people disagree with his right to do that, but he should be able to do that.
By dirtbogger December 15, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Thankyou 1794
By sid December 15, 2009 at 2:28 pm
You really don’t understand much, ‘booger, do you? Certainly not American history, and definitely not current affairs. But it’s nice to see you are comfortable making clear you have some very deep prejudices. You can question all you want, but I guarantee I’ve done far more to defend your freedoms than you will ever imagine even trying to do. Blogging, btw, does little, in your case, as does your attempt to spread the lies of the “truthers.”
As for your little buddy 1794, you two should get a room, cuz I sense a serious crush going on. He/she is as delusional as you, if he/she buys into the free-fall lie, as well as the lefty disenfranchisement tripe. Does he/she get a royalty every time your “name” is written? Oh, and nobody disagrees with ‘booger’s right to speak out, just as nobody disagrees with my right, or anyone else’s, to call him out when it seems he’s ranting in a particularly paranoid fashion. We all are entitled to say what we want, even if it is not what you want to hear, like the truth.
By dirtbogger December 15, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Sid, its not prejudices, the difference however is that I do not deny our countries history. Why cant you debate without name calling? I know why, thats the only leg you have to stand on!
By sid December 15, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Yes, you are prejudice. You state everyone who is rich is different, treats everyone who is not rich differently, and considers everyone who is not rich to be nothing more than a toll to further their fortune. And, of course, they are all part of the Grand Conspiracy. That is prejudice. That’s not “name calling,” but simply the definition. If you don’t want to fit the definition, you are going to have to change your beliefs.
Similarly, if you want me to stop saying you’re nuts, stop acting nuts. It’s really so simple, I’m sure you can follow the concept. Then again, since you swallow the “truther” message without asking one reasonable question, then maybe you can’t.
By 1794 December 15, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Some people have made it as clear as unpolluted air how they feel about people questioning the official story and it’s overkill to come back and repeat over and over how they’re delusional is just hammering on a nail that’s already in the boards. As far as royalties are concerned, it would seem that Sid is being paid for each post to go up to the plate and try to tear down any accusation against his precious and perfect government that hasn’t even allowed a real investigation into what happened. If the truth were known, you probably couldn’t handle it anyway. Just for your reading and ranting pleasure, here are a few quotes from some very high leaders: “I’m telling you there’s an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That’s the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best.” –”I’ll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office.” — “Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.” — (Reporter asking)…”what will the American people do if they find out the truth about Iraq/Gate and Iran/Contra?” “If the people were to ever find out what we have done, we would be chased down the streets and lynched.”
You can choose to disregard the quotes from former leaders. If you even care about it, you can find out for yourself who said what. Whether you do or don’t, it would be appreciated if the name callers didn’t project their own homoerotic fantasies about how people they don’t like should “get a room”. The implication is that those who disagree with mainstream apologists are homosexual. If you don’t question the official story full of holes regarding number 7, you shouldn’t jump to the conclusion that those who disagree with you are of the same sex. Questioning authority does not mean you’re sexually promiscuous or perverted, even if you pretend that you weren’t implying homosexuality. A lot of people agree with their church leaders or spiritual advisors. That doesn’t mean they would ever consider having sex with them. How can you know the sex or sexual orientation of posters when you can’t even explain the missing black boxes or whether there are any tapes of the last flights of the 4 planes and if so, why aren’t those released?
By sid December 15, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Homoerotic fantasies? Wow! Looks like I touched a raw nerve. Since the nom de guerre “1789″ is exceptionally non-specific when it comes to determining sex, I made it clear I had no idea what you were when I said, repeatedly, “he/she” in reference to you. Of course, that whole dialogue was clearly meant to be lighthearted and humorous, but based on your reaction, it seems you’ve got some personal stuff to figure out. Good luck with that.
As for your “quotes,” the one I recognize immediately was Bush. Of course, considering he was well known for screwing up the spoken word, the thought that you would read anything more than a simple lapsus linguae into that statement speaks volumes about where your head is at. You’re a conspiracy nut. I get it. I understood that with your first post. I’m sure most, if not all, of your other “quotes” are either similar screwups, or never really happened.
Nonetheless, you couldn’t possibly be more off base with your comment about how I feel about our government. I say “our,” as I presume you are an American citizen. If not, however, I both apologize for the confusion, and am glad you are not actually part of our great experiment.
Of course, if you’ve bothered to read the comments above, then you know I’ve provided links to rational explanations to what you call conspiracy. As said previously, you and ‘booger bring nothing new to the conspiracy discussion. Everything you bring up can be summarized with, “Asked and answered.” The truth clearly doesn’t fit into your paranoia, so you simply dispell it as a lie. That’s the convenient response from all “truthers.” No lunar landing for you, too?
By land of the free December 16, 2009 at 8:32 am
There was no lunar landing for Apollo 13, but there would have been if they hadn’t had trouble on the way. That mission was aborted due to technical failure. I think Apollo 11 went all the way a year earlier. It won’t be long before a trip to Mars, although it will take about 6 months to get there. Mangling the language you were born to speak is one thing and Freudian slip is another. If the black boxes weren’t recovered, presuming your links, then why weren’t the transmission tapes of the missing planes that were heard at the different air traffic towers released? No problems to work out with sexuality here. You can defend your statement about renting a room, but it wasn’t very friendly and people make these comments about other people’s sexuality and imply that people are homosexuals when they might be talking about themselves. One example is Westboro Baptist Church and their hateful and constant bashing of people who really are homosexual. Anyone who makes a doctrine out of something that most people aren’t is probably guilty of it himself. What sex I am is neither here nor there. I just don’t think it’s polite to make that sort of suggestion because some people take things too far and next thing you know someone gets physically hurt by a bunch of insecure people proving they are men by ganging up on what they feel threatened by. You don’t have to believe in conspiracies, but please try to believe in promoting public safety. Drive carefully and have a nice day.
By sid December 16, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Was anyone talking to you, LOTF?