Roofus,
Not sure where that came from. Was there a point? I’m sort of doubting the army manual from 1864 and today look alike, but maybe you know different.

Second, waterboarding is considered torture by the United States of America. This is not a guess, but a demonstrable fact. The Army Field Manual is explicit and so are our treaty obligations. This a technique used against Americans during the Korean War by the Chinese and North Koreans. It was considered torture then, it’s torture now.

Third, the value of intelligence derived from torture is spotty at best. This isn’t my opinion. but the opinion of seasoned intelligence experts. Abu Zubaida wasn’t immune, he just told them anything they wanted to hear. Here’s a snippet about the drive to produce the magical link between terrorists and Iraq:

“By late 2001, counterterrorism officials were becoming frustrated by the paucity of useful leads coming from interrogations — a meager showing that was linked, according to one Army major, to interrogators’ insistence on “establishing a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq,” the report said.”

Now juxtapose that agasinst this:

“Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, ratified by the United States and more than 130 other countries since 1984, forbids governments from deliberately inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering on those within their custody or control. Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens. These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to justice….
The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment.”
http://italy.usembassy.gov/viewer/article.asp?article=/file2003_06/alia/A3062613.htm

G.W. Bush
June 26, 2003

You are being very “silly.” What is torture? Is aggressive interrogation using water boarding torture? I’m sure that there are a variety of opinions. I don’t care. I want my family safe. If squirting water up a terrorist’s nose gives valuable information that will prevent massive loss of innocent life, then go for it! Khalid Shiek Mohammad (sp?) chirped like a birdie with mere seconds of water boarding, according to published CIA reports. Abu Zu.. did not respond to the technique, reportedly. I’m not a trained interrogator, but it’s obvious not all interrogation techniques are equally effective. I’m certainly not for our guys randoming chopping off fingers like the bad guys, but water boarding is non-lethal and does not cause any permanent physiological sequelae.

Though I’m sure you won’t find it recording in any lofty text book, aggressive interrogation techniques have always been employed by our military. The guys that usually engage in that line of work aren’t very snarky or chatty by nature, so don’t expect a tell-all expose anytime soon.

Don’t forget, with Islamofascism, we’re fighting an enemy who kills innocent, un-armed civilians enmasse. This is an enemy who doesn’t abide by Geneva convention protocol and engages in routine asymmetic warfare techniques.

I’ve read that John Wilkes Booth was agonizingly tortured by union troops using hot coals prior to his eventual murder by gunshot. Neither you nor I were present, Pat, so neither of us knows what actually took place.

We didn’t use torture during WWII. Was there less at stake during that war? Our freedom less threatened? We didn’t use torture during the Cold War? Was there less at stake? Cerius has to go back to federal troops torturing the conspirators in Lincoln’s killing (Booth was killed with a shot to the head and never tortured) to find a instance where our nation used torture. What does that tell you? Besides, torture (ask John McCain) is not a reliable source of intelligence. Stop watching 24 and grow up. (PS: I’ve never been to a blog where people use the world “idiot” with such frequency. It’s silly)

In any event, the ends do not justify the means, the ends here are not even known. We wear the white hats – we’re the good guys.

And Jane and Mike, let me assure you, Obama was a welcome change at the CIA. The suggestion is that if the room had been full of swaggering field officers it would have been less welcoming (according to fits with murderous designs) of the president. I doubt it. If you were an operative in Central Asia and were afforded more money, men and resources to carry out an enhanced mission with presidential commitment, rather than pouring them into Iraq, you might like the idea of Obama in the White House.

Then again the fact he has promised to depoliticise the CIA might be enough, too.

Not bickering with you on the torture point at all, but I can assure the “rank and file” didn’t hate Bush or his administration. A certain, select minority were definitely rankled when he had the nerve to imply that as the President of the United States he maintained executive control over policy and directives, but they were NOT the rank and file, or anything close to a majority. They were the top of the food chain, which at Langley is predominantly silver-spoon Ivy Leaguers of the old entitlement, “we’re smarter than you so hush” mindset. The rank and file folks out in the weeds knew exactly what Bush was trying to do and why, even if we didn’t necessarily agree with every decision he made.

Again, a minor clarification- not arguing the torture point…