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	<title>Comments on: S.C. Education Establishment Launches Billboard Campaign</title>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-43964</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-43964</guid>
		<description>I lived in Walterboro, SC and I moved from the state when me and my husband got pregnant. I did not my child to go to school in South Carolina. Maybe just maybe the problem starts with the parents. Make your children go to school. Everyday in Walterboro it looked like summer vaction. Kids hanging out when they should be in school. And where were the parents, they were with them at Walmart or walking down the street. If your child gets an education they are going to be able to get a good job and pay taxes. When more people have jobs, there is more tax money to go towards the schools. Instead the parents stay home and do absolutly nothing and teach their children you dont have to work collect welfare. What is that teaching kids? To be lazy and live off of the hard work of others. Want the best for your kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I lived in Walterboro, SC and I moved from the state when me and my husband got pregnant. I did not my child to go to school in South Carolina. Maybe just maybe the problem starts with the parents. Make your children go to school. Everyday in Walterboro it looked like summer vaction. Kids hanging out when they should be in school. And where were the parents, they were with them at Walmart or walking down the street. If your child gets an education they are going to be able to get a good job and pay taxes. When more people have jobs, there is more tax money to go towards the schools. Instead the parents stay home and do absolutly nothing and teach their children you dont have to work collect welfare. What is that teaching kids? To be lazy and live off of the hard work of others. Want the best for your kids.</p>
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		<title>By: upstater</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2135</link>
		<dc:creator>upstater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2135</guid>
		<description>Any of these concerns resonate with you all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any of these concerns resonate with you all?</p>
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		<title>By: upstater</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2136</link>
		<dc:creator>upstater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2136</guid>
		<description>I admit that was a long post....but any comment pro-school-choicers, free-market true believers, etc.?

I think there&#039;s plenty of interesting discussion to be had.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit that was a long post&#8230;.but any comment pro-school-choicers, free-market true believers, etc.?</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s plenty of interesting discussion to be had.</p>
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		<title>By: upstater</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2139</link>
		<dc:creator>upstater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2139</guid>
		<description>In high school, we used to watch educational programs by Milton Friedman. Our teacher called him &quot;Uncle Milt.&quot;

In any case, this &quot;free market economics&quot; deal assumes a number of things that are tough determine in education. My guess is that voucher money or tax credit money would, indeed, produce some scattered new offerings....and if we could guarantee that those new offerings would help the kids with the greatest need, then it might be a good thing. But here are a few things I think are worth mulling over:

 -- The free market generally refers, I would think, to for-profit businesses. Is education a good example of for-profit business? How many private schools are run for a profit? In fact, there are some companies that work on this basis in a variety of communities. To my knowledge, they usually contract with a public system, which is different from a voucher/choice scenario....maybe there are examples of for-profit companies in a school choice situation, but my guess is that it&#039;s rare. There are businesses that run tutoring services, but that&#039;s certainly very different from running a full-scale school.

-- Voucher money would put TUITION dollars into the market. But what does TUITION money really pay for? What&#039;s Will Folks&#039; alma mater? Hammond Academy? Heathwood Hall? One of those? Anyway, are those schools run totally on tuition dollars? Were their buildings constructed on tuition dollars? My guess is that the vast majority of upscale private schools -- the ones that folks like Mark Sanford send their children to -- are run largely on endowments and ongoing charitable fundraising.....all of which is decidedly non-for-profit business and also well beyond the scope of tuition vouchers and tax credits.


 -- What about other facilities? Well, there are rundown strip malls that might have empty storefronts for cheap rent. Maybe those could actually work in some cases -- seriously. Of course, should physical education be a requirement? Empty parking lots might suit. What about school lunch? After all, many of the state&#039;s poorest kids get free lunch....possibly the only decent meals (not that their so great) are in school. Would storefront schools reasonably be able to offer lunch? And, again, it sure isn&#039;t the kind of setting Mark Sanford has chosen for his own children....or that people like Will Folks grew up attending. Churches with nice buildings are certainly a reasonable possibility in some cases, but even those are in quite limited supply in our poorest counties.

 -- Will demand really lead to supply in our poorest counties? Again, especially considering that education generally isn&#039;t a for-profit or high-profit business. We&#039;re talking about counties that already have shortages of qualified teachers as well as economies that are depressed in general. The notion that young, sharp professionals are going to flock to these communities to start schools on voucher tuition money -- AND to teach our poorest, most academically challenged students -- seems a little over-optimistic, I&#039;d say. It MIGHT happen in Greenville or Columbia or Charleston....but Allendale? Marion? Bamberg? Manning?

 -- Finally, while it&#039;s fair to say that vouchers targeted at the poor might help some where the conditions are just right, SCRG, as touted by Mark Sanford and Will folks, actually guaranteed the poorest folks NOTHING. It would have served the middle-class first. The poor could have gotten scholarships had the &quot;scholarship granting organizations&quot; worked out (and maybe they would have done well). But they would have been guaranteed nothing at all and, it would seem, would have certainly most often gotten scholarships only AFTER more well-off kids families had gotten their tax credits and, thus, their pick of existing private school capacity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In high school, we used to watch educational programs by Milton Friedman. Our teacher called him &#8220;Uncle Milt.&#8221;</p>
<p>In any case, this &#8220;free market economics&#8221; deal assumes a number of things that are tough determine in education. My guess is that voucher money or tax credit money would, indeed, produce some scattered new offerings&#8230;.and if we could guarantee that those new offerings would help the kids with the greatest need, then it might be a good thing. But here are a few things I think are worth mulling over:</p>
<p> &#8212; The free market generally refers, I would think, to for-profit businesses. Is education a good example of for-profit business? How many private schools are run for a profit? In fact, there are some companies that work on this basis in a variety of communities. To my knowledge, they usually contract with a public system, which is different from a voucher/choice scenario&#8230;.maybe there are examples of for-profit companies in a school choice situation, but my guess is that it&#8217;s rare. There are businesses that run tutoring services, but that&#8217;s certainly very different from running a full-scale school.</p>
<p>&#8211; Voucher money would put TUITION dollars into the market. But what does TUITION money really pay for? What&#8217;s Will Folks&#8217; alma mater? Hammond Academy? Heathwood Hall? One of those? Anyway, are those schools run totally on tuition dollars? Were their buildings constructed on tuition dollars? My guess is that the vast majority of upscale private schools &#8212; the ones that folks like Mark Sanford send their children to &#8212; are run largely on endowments and ongoing charitable fundraising&#8230;..all of which is decidedly non-for-profit business and also well beyond the scope of tuition vouchers and tax credits.</p>
<p> &#8212; What about other facilities? Well, there are rundown strip malls that might have empty storefronts for cheap rent. Maybe those could actually work in some cases &#8212; seriously. Of course, should physical education be a requirement? Empty parking lots might suit. What about school lunch? After all, many of the state&#8217;s poorest kids get free lunch&#8230;.possibly the only decent meals (not that their so great) are in school. Would storefront schools reasonably be able to offer lunch? And, again, it sure isn&#8217;t the kind of setting Mark Sanford has chosen for his own children&#8230;.or that people like Will Folks grew up attending. Churches with nice buildings are certainly a reasonable possibility in some cases, but even those are in quite limited supply in our poorest counties.</p>
<p> &#8212; Will demand really lead to supply in our poorest counties? Again, especially considering that education generally isn&#8217;t a for-profit or high-profit business. We&#8217;re talking about counties that already have shortages of qualified teachers as well as economies that are depressed in general. The notion that young, sharp professionals are going to flock to these communities to start schools on voucher tuition money &#8212; AND to teach our poorest, most academically challenged students &#8212; seems a little over-optimistic, I&#8217;d say. It MIGHT happen in Greenville or Columbia or Charleston&#8230;.but Allendale? Marion? Bamberg? Manning?</p>
<p> &#8212; Finally, while it&#8217;s fair to say that vouchers targeted at the poor might help some where the conditions are just right, SCRG, as touted by Mark Sanford and Will folks, actually guaranteed the poorest folks NOTHING. It would have served the middle-class first. The poor could have gotten scholarships had the &#8220;scholarship granting organizations&#8221; worked out (and maybe they would have done well). But they would have been guaranteed nothing at all and, it would seem, would have certainly most often gotten scholarships only AFTER more well-off kids families had gotten their tax credits and, thus, their pick of existing private school capacity.</p>
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		<title>By: Milton Friedman</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2138</link>
		<dc:creator>Milton Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2138</guid>
		<description>Upstater -- if the demand (as would be created by vouchers) were there, the supply (i.e., private schools, parochial schools, etc.) would meet it, even in rural counties. All part of the free market economics that so terrifies the educrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upstater &#8212; if the demand (as would be created by vouchers) were there, the supply (i.e., private schools, parochial schools, etc.) would meet it, even in rural counties. All part of the free market economics that so terrifies the educrats.</p>
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		<title>By: upstater</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2137</link>
		<dc:creator>upstater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2137</guid>
		<description>It would seem pretty difficult, I think, to realistically compare Milwaukee or Cleveland to Jasper County or Colleton County, SC. Large city with many existing private schools, dense populations, developed public transportation (I would guess) vs. sparsely populated communities with little or no public transportation, qualified teacher shortages already, and few existing private schools --especially ones that are looking to take on the very students who are most likely to drop out of school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would seem pretty difficult, I think, to realistically compare Milwaukee or Cleveland to Jasper County or Colleton County, SC. Large city with many existing private schools, dense populations, developed public transportation (I would guess) vs. sparsely populated communities with little or no public transportation, qualified teacher shortages already, and few existing private schools &#8211;especially ones that are looking to take on the very students who are most likely to drop out of school.</p>
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		<title>By: G.L.</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2146</link>
		<dc:creator>G.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 03:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2146</guid>
		<description>One of the main reasons I&#039;m starting to support vouchers is because the status quo educrats with the NEA and School Boards Association and whatever new group they have this week are so rude and so quick to jump to conspiracies when their magnificent public school system that we pay for gets criticized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the main reasons I&#8217;m starting to support vouchers is because the status quo educrats with the NEA and School Boards Association and whatever new group they have this week are so rude and so quick to jump to conspiracies when their magnificent public school system that we pay for gets criticized.</p>
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		<title>By: Natasha</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2141</link>
		<dc:creator>Natasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2141</guid>
		<description>VF #19,

The news release is a joke, it gives NO STATISTICS, only statements. First of all, a broad &quot;failing assessment&quot; in such a short period of time is completely embryonic. Secondly, there are NO NUMBERS to back the statements up, so one cannot clearly analyze the data. Thirdly, who did they survey? ALL the kids, or just the kids participating in school choice, that will make a difference, if the kids getting vouchers are getting higher marks, then it&#039;s worth it. Fourth - once competition is implemented in an educational system, then in the theory of the free market, that competition should make the entire educational system better as well...

And last but not least...why the hell not? Why shouldn&#039;t SC AT LEAST TRY SOMETHING NEW, it still can&#039;t be any worse than where we already are re: education. It would be dumber than dumb not to change, not to try to help those who need it most...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VF #19,</p>
<p>The news release is a joke, it gives NO STATISTICS, only statements. First of all, a broad &#8220;failing assessment&#8221; in such a short period of time is completely embryonic. Secondly, there are NO NUMBERS to back the statements up, so one cannot clearly analyze the data. Thirdly, who did they survey? ALL the kids, or just the kids participating in school choice, that will make a difference, if the kids getting vouchers are getting higher marks, then it&#8217;s worth it. Fourth &#8211; once competition is implemented in an educational system, then in the theory of the free market, that competition should make the entire educational system better as well&#8230;</p>
<p>And last but not least&#8230;why the hell not? Why shouldn&#8217;t SC AT LEAST TRY SOMETHING NEW, it still can&#8217;t be any worse than where we already are re: education. It would be dumber than dumb not to change, not to try to help those who need it most&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Boss</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2140</link>
		<dc:creator>The Boss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2140</guid>
		<description>&quot;Inadequate funding&quot;? What a joke. Over $10,000 a head now -- and even more in our state&#039;s poorer counties, thanks to the &quot;unbalanced funding&quot; inherent in weighted-distribution formulas like the EFA and, to a lesser degree, the EAA. And now you&#039;re focusing on words like &quot;mimimally adequate,&quot; as if changing them will magically undo the way the education establishment has cluster-fucked the whole system. And by &quot;education establishment,&quot; VS, I mean the bureaucrats, from Rex at the SDE all the way down to the public relations hacks that each and every board of education hires to shill for dollars and shamelessly burnish their shitty image.)Competition has made our nation the envy of the world, but educrats prefer their cozy static world. And yes, the Corridor of Shame is a direct result of that cozy world. Change is coming; count on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Inadequate funding&#8221;? What a joke. Over $10,000 a head now &#8212; and even more in our state&#8217;s poorer counties, thanks to the &#8220;unbalanced funding&#8221; inherent in weighted-distribution formulas like the EFA and, to a lesser degree, the EAA. And now you&#8217;re focusing on words like &#8220;mimimally adequate,&#8221; as if changing them will magically undo the way the education establishment has cluster-fucked the whole system. And by &#8220;education establishment,&#8221; VS, I mean the bureaucrats, from Rex at the SDE all the way down to the public relations hacks that each and every board of education hires to shill for dollars and shamelessly burnish their shitty image.)Competition has made our nation the envy of the world, but educrats prefer their cozy static world. And yes, the Corridor of Shame is a direct result of that cozy world. Change is coming; count on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Vouchers Stink</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/07/14/sc-education-establishment-launches-billboard-campaign/#comment-2152</link>
		<dc:creator>Vouchers Stink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1482#comment-2152</guid>
		<description>Poor Will.  There you go again with the SCRG rhetoric you are paid to regurgitate.  Your buddy Mick Mulvaney refused to answer this, so why don&#039;t you take a &#039;crack&#039; at it...

â€¦sorry, poor choice of words.  Please answer a question for us.

By the way, Mick is the only Legislator we know who has admitted talking to you since you joined the SCRG. So here comes the question.

First, a little background music: As we have clearly pointed out here many times the real problems facing schools come from latent racism and the poverty that rides on its back - along with inadequate and unbalanced funding. And one of the biggest problems is the standard our Legislature has set for public education:  &quot;minimally adequate.&quot;

There are also social and parenting issues that go along with the poverty and racism, but we don&#039;t want to distract you with social issues that would upset you.

So, just stick to the previous paragraph.

How do vouchers address those real problems?   The don&#039;t!

What do vouchers do for the children left behind?    Nothing!

Vouchers do nothing to address the real problems or to raise the S.C. education standard of &quot;minimally adequate.&quot;

We asked Mick if we could count on him to introduce legislation next session to raise that standard to &quot;superior education.&quot;

We have not heard from him since.

Voucher will do one thing well. They will create a new standard of &quot;separate but equal&quot; in S.C. As Gilda pointed out, we already tried &quot;separate but equal.&quot;   It failed.  Just like vouchers fail.  You know it and so does S.C.

And, Will, with your temper you are really are not cut out for this business. Make sure you take your blood pressure medicine so you don&#039;t burst a vein.  And get plenty of rest.  It will help with your stress.

P.S. It&#039;s a lie to suggest the â€œCorridor of Shameâ€ was created by the &quot;education establishment&quot; (whatever that is). You know what created it.  Vouchers will only make it worse along the &quot;Corridor of Shame.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poor Will.  There you go again with the SCRG rhetoric you are paid to regurgitate.  Your buddy Mick Mulvaney refused to answer this, so why don&#8217;t you take a &#8216;crack&#8217; at it&#8230;</p>
<p>â€¦sorry, poor choice of words.  Please answer a question for us.</p>
<p>By the way, Mick is the only Legislator we know who has admitted talking to you since you joined the SCRG. So here comes the question.</p>
<p>First, a little background music: As we have clearly pointed out here many times the real problems facing schools come from latent racism and the poverty that rides on its back &#8211; along with inadequate and unbalanced funding. And one of the biggest problems is the standard our Legislature has set for public education:  &#8220;minimally adequate.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are also social and parenting issues that go along with the poverty and racism, but we don&#8217;t want to distract you with social issues that would upset you.</p>
<p>So, just stick to the previous paragraph.</p>
<p>How do vouchers address those real problems?   The don&#8217;t!</p>
<p>What do vouchers do for the children left behind?    Nothing!</p>
<p>Vouchers do nothing to address the real problems or to raise the S.C. education standard of &#8220;minimally adequate.&#8221;</p>
<p>We asked Mick if we could count on him to introduce legislation next session to raise that standard to &#8220;superior education.&#8221;</p>
<p>We have not heard from him since.</p>
<p>Voucher will do one thing well. They will create a new standard of &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; in S.C. As Gilda pointed out, we already tried &#8220;separate but equal.&#8221;   It failed.  Just like vouchers fail.  You know it and so does S.C.</p>
<p>And, Will, with your temper you are really are not cut out for this business. Make sure you take your blood pressure medicine so you don&#8217;t burst a vein.  And get plenty of rest.  It will help with your stress.</p>
<p>P.S. It&#8217;s a lie to suggest the â€œCorridor of Shameâ€ was created by the &#8220;education establishment&#8221; (whatever that is). You know what created it.  Vouchers will only make it worse along the &#8220;Corridor of Shame.&#8221;</p>
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