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	<title>Comments on: To Compete Or Not To Compete</title>
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	<description>Unfair ... Imbalanced</description>
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		<title>By: upstater</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1903</link>
		<dc:creator>upstater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1903</guid>
		<description>All this is very interesting, but there are just very obviously some logical questions regarding the whole deal:

 -- Which strong private schools -- the ones some school choice folks like to hold up as a contrast to our lagging public education system -- will accept struggling students? Where did Will go to school? Hammond Academy? Is Hammond going to take 8th graders reading on a 4th grade level? How about the school where the governor&#039;s kids go? Heathwood Hall? Is Mark Sanford going to demand that his children&#039;s school accept 5th graders reading on a 2nd grade level and students who have been suspended a handful of times in the last year?

Is there a private school in Columbia ready to take students who are struggling behaviorally and academically (the same kind of students whose test scores and graduation rates make SC 50th or whatever)? How about in Hampton County? Or Williamsburg County?



 -- Some choice advocates say that, well, new money into the &quot;free market&quot; will create innovation, new schools, whatever. There may be some truth to this -- likely so. But do these folks really have any idea the costs involved in running a school? Is Hammond Academy run on tuition dollars alone? Is Heathwood? Is Lowcountry Originally-Segregationist Academy? Or do these schools also operate to a significant extent on endowments and ongoing fundraising, the sort of money that won&#039;t be available through tax credits or vouchers?

How are facilities constructed? With tuition money? I would doubt it. Sure, there may be storefronts available for cheap in rundown strip malls. Some choice advocates tout such a scenario, and, indeed, maybe a good education could be had there, with the right mix of students and teachers. But it&#039;s funny: the well-to-do folks who are buying private education now don&#039;t seem to be starting up schools much in rundown strip malls; the seem to prefer for their own children to go to schools with gymnasiums and decent classrooms and playgrounds, etc.

Churches offer a possibility, as many have classrooms already, even gyms in some cases. But even that&#039;s likely to be a tough outlet in our state&#039;s poorest counties and towns, where the churches have less to work with.


 -- What about transportation? Without transportation, &quot;choice&quot; is basically meaningless for many, many families. Choice advocates say that&#039;s a detail that can be worked out. Certainly, with enough money, it probably can. But at what expense? Does it come out of a family&#039;s tuition money? That would have an impact on what families can afford and, thus, choose. We have public-owned buses, but are they to run extra routes -- to the local public schools AND the private schools? Maybe we&#039;re talking logistics here, but logistics can be pretty important.



 -- Meanwhile, the Put Parents in Charge proposal that Will Folks used to tout guaranteed money to parents of a certain middle-class level. But what did it promise to our state&#039;s poorest families, those who pay little in income tax? If I&#039;m not mistaken, PPIC promised those families nothing!

The proposal called for &quot;scholarship granting organizations&quot; to put money together -- through tax credits -- for poor kids&#039; tuition. Would it work? Maybe. Maybe even likely, to some extent. But how many kids would be covered? How long would it take for the SGOs to get into gear? Would the middle-class families getting tax credits pretty much get all the current private school seats in their community before the poor folks could get scholarships? It seems to me that the SGOs sound like a nice idea -- and they might, in fact, be able to provide scholarships for a percentage of the poor -- but it&#039;s really unclear.

Again, PPIC guaranteed money to the middle-class but not to the poor children who, in general, have the lowest test scores and graduation rates. In reality, while the term &quot;voucher&quot; is made to sound more dirty by anti-choice folks, the deal is that a targeted voucher program may be a lot better for SC&#039;s most struggling students than PPIC&#039;s tax credits.



 -- So, it seems clear that there are some possibilities for poor children in South Carolina through choice. But it seems equally obvious that these possibilities may be extremely limited -- based on logistics; based on admission policies of private schools; based on finances; and if PPIC as Will and Mark Sanford originally promoted it, based on the proposal itself.

With all this mind, it only makes sense that critics point to other potential reforms and innovations (including magnet schools, charter schools, after-school programs, various teaching practices, etc.) while questioning the impact that so-called choice might have on the students who remain in the public system. How will the loss of public school money affect those students? If a proposal like PPIC encouraged middle-class families to leave public schools while offering only limited options to the poor, would there be a drain of community support and leadership for the public education?

Choice supporters sometimes say, Of course not. The public schools must compete. Competition will certainly mean that they&#039;ll just have to get better. Well, here again, the argument isn&#039;t quite what it seems. In sports or business, &quot;competition&quot; generally means playing by the same set of rules. But in education, it doesn&#039;t work that way -- at all. Public schools are required by law to do all sorts of things private schools are not. One key example: The kids in a school are part of what gives a school its character, allows for a certain curriculum, and accounts in large part for its test scores. The students help to define the product. Private schools can choose their students. Public schools cannot. The notion that this is &quot;free market&quot;-style competition is absurd.

 -- Finally, Ms. Scoppe is correct about the need for community support of public schools. Of course, it&#039;s the job of school leaders -- both political and appointed -- to earn community trust and support. And sometimes they do fail. But it&#039;s also true, I think, that in communities where public education has support, administrators and teachers are held more accountable. MORE is demanded of them, not less. And this doesn&#039;t simply mean &quot;defending the status quo,&quot; as some choice proponents like to charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this is very interesting, but there are just very obviously some logical questions regarding the whole deal:</p>
<p> &#8212; Which strong private schools &#8212; the ones some school choice folks like to hold up as a contrast to our lagging public education system &#8212; will accept struggling students? Where did Will go to school? Hammond Academy? Is Hammond going to take 8th graders reading on a 4th grade level? How about the school where the governor&#8217;s kids go? Heathwood Hall? Is Mark Sanford going to demand that his children&#8217;s school accept 5th graders reading on a 2nd grade level and students who have been suspended a handful of times in the last year?</p>
<p>Is there a private school in Columbia ready to take students who are struggling behaviorally and academically (the same kind of students whose test scores and graduation rates make SC 50th or whatever)? How about in Hampton County? Or Williamsburg County?</p>
<p> &#8212; Some choice advocates say that, well, new money into the &#8220;free market&#8221; will create innovation, new schools, whatever. There may be some truth to this &#8212; likely so. But do these folks really have any idea the costs involved in running a school? Is Hammond Academy run on tuition dollars alone? Is Heathwood? Is Lowcountry Originally-Segregationist Academy? Or do these schools also operate to a significant extent on endowments and ongoing fundraising, the sort of money that won&#8217;t be available through tax credits or vouchers?</p>
<p>How are facilities constructed? With tuition money? I would doubt it. Sure, there may be storefronts available for cheap in rundown strip malls. Some choice advocates tout such a scenario, and, indeed, maybe a good education could be had there, with the right mix of students and teachers. But it&#8217;s funny: the well-to-do folks who are buying private education now don&#8217;t seem to be starting up schools much in rundown strip malls; the seem to prefer for their own children to go to schools with gymnasiums and decent classrooms and playgrounds, etc.</p>
<p>Churches offer a possibility, as many have classrooms already, even gyms in some cases. But even that&#8217;s likely to be a tough outlet in our state&#8217;s poorest counties and towns, where the churches have less to work with.</p>
<p> &#8212; What about transportation? Without transportation, &#8220;choice&#8221; is basically meaningless for many, many families. Choice advocates say that&#8217;s a detail that can be worked out. Certainly, with enough money, it probably can. But at what expense? Does it come out of a family&#8217;s tuition money? That would have an impact on what families can afford and, thus, choose. We have public-owned buses, but are they to run extra routes &#8212; to the local public schools AND the private schools? Maybe we&#8217;re talking logistics here, but logistics can be pretty important.</p>
<p> &#8212; Meanwhile, the Put Parents in Charge proposal that Will Folks used to tout guaranteed money to parents of a certain middle-class level. But what did it promise to our state&#8217;s poorest families, those who pay little in income tax? If I&#8217;m not mistaken, PPIC promised those families nothing!</p>
<p>The proposal called for &#8220;scholarship granting organizations&#8221; to put money together &#8212; through tax credits &#8212; for poor kids&#8217; tuition. Would it work? Maybe. Maybe even likely, to some extent. But how many kids would be covered? How long would it take for the SGOs to get into gear? Would the middle-class families getting tax credits pretty much get all the current private school seats in their community before the poor folks could get scholarships? It seems to me that the SGOs sound like a nice idea &#8212; and they might, in fact, be able to provide scholarships for a percentage of the poor &#8212; but it&#8217;s really unclear.</p>
<p>Again, PPIC guaranteed money to the middle-class but not to the poor children who, in general, have the lowest test scores and graduation rates. In reality, while the term &#8220;voucher&#8221; is made to sound more dirty by anti-choice folks, the deal is that a targeted voucher program may be a lot better for SC&#8217;s most struggling students than PPIC&#8217;s tax credits.</p>
<p> &#8212; So, it seems clear that there are some possibilities for poor children in South Carolina through choice. But it seems equally obvious that these possibilities may be extremely limited &#8212; based on logistics; based on admission policies of private schools; based on finances; and if PPIC as Will and Mark Sanford originally promoted it, based on the proposal itself.</p>
<p>With all this mind, it only makes sense that critics point to other potential reforms and innovations (including magnet schools, charter schools, after-school programs, various teaching practices, etc.) while questioning the impact that so-called choice might have on the students who remain in the public system. How will the loss of public school money affect those students? If a proposal like PPIC encouraged middle-class families to leave public schools while offering only limited options to the poor, would there be a drain of community support and leadership for the public education?</p>
<p>Choice supporters sometimes say, Of course not. The public schools must compete. Competition will certainly mean that they&#8217;ll just have to get better. Well, here again, the argument isn&#8217;t quite what it seems. In sports or business, &#8220;competition&#8221; generally means playing by the same set of rules. But in education, it doesn&#8217;t work that way &#8212; at all. Public schools are required by law to do all sorts of things private schools are not. One key example: The kids in a school are part of what gives a school its character, allows for a certain curriculum, and accounts in large part for its test scores. The students help to define the product. Private schools can choose their students. Public schools cannot. The notion that this is &#8220;free market&#8221;-style competition is absurd.</p>
<p> &#8212; Finally, Ms. Scoppe is correct about the need for community support of public schools. Of course, it&#8217;s the job of school leaders &#8212; both political and appointed &#8212; to earn community trust and support. And sometimes they do fail. But it&#8217;s also true, I think, that in communities where public education has support, administrators and teachers are held more accountable. MORE is demanded of them, not less. And this doesn&#8217;t simply mean &#8220;defending the status quo,&#8221; as some choice proponents like to charge.</p>
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		<title>By: Public School Parent Who Prefers Choice</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1898</link>
		<dc:creator>Public School Parent Who Prefers Choice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1898</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t seen a single post yet which defends the Jim Rex&#039;s phony school choice bill.   It&#039;s a photo-op feel-good sham.   0.5% of enrollment three years from now for districts that decide for themselves whether they are not overcrowded.   No transportation either for those who are lucky enough to get a new spot.   Bet you see a lot of 8th grade running backs from lousy schools finding their way into new schools with top football programs.

Why are you public school prison wardens so afraid to try ANYTHING different?     How could it possibly be worse for kids in abysmal schools?      Pick one school in Allendale and give each kid a $10K voucher (which is less than they spend per pupil now).   See what happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t seen a single post yet which defends the Jim Rex&#8217;s phony school choice bill.   It&#8217;s a photo-op feel-good sham.   0.5% of enrollment three years from now for districts that decide for themselves whether they are not overcrowded.   No transportation either for those who are lucky enough to get a new spot.   Bet you see a lot of 8th grade running backs from lousy schools finding their way into new schools with top football programs.</p>
<p>Why are you public school prison wardens so afraid to try ANYTHING different?     How could it possibly be worse for kids in abysmal schools?      Pick one school in Allendale and give each kid a $10K voucher (which is less than they spend per pupil now).   See what happens.</p>
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		<title>By: FITSNews</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1899</link>
		<dc:creator>FITSNews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1899</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a lot of anger and accusation on this subject, obviously ... which is probably why we keep bringing it up.

Yet whether we&#039;re shouted up or shouted down, on this subject or any other, we&#039;re going to keep the megaphone pointed at you ...

-FITSNews</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a lot of anger and accusation on this subject, obviously &#8230; which is probably why we keep bringing it up.</p>
<p>Yet whether we&#8217;re shouted up or shouted down, on this subject or any other, we&#8217;re going to keep the megaphone pointed at you &#8230;</p>
<p>-FITSNews</p>
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		<title>By: Go Team Go</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1902</link>
		<dc:creator>Go Team Go</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1902</guid>
		<description>Will the paid political hack is being shouted down by reasonable citizens. This is a clear indication of why vouchers keep being defeated in S.C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will the paid political hack is being shouted down by reasonable citizens. This is a clear indication of why vouchers keep being defeated in S.C.</p>
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		<title>By: State of the Debate &#171; The Voice for School Choice</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1919</link>
		<dc:creator>State of the Debate &#171; The Voice for School Choice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1919</guid>
		<description>[...] 23rd, 2007 &#183; No Comments  FITSnews has one heck of a good post on the school choice debate in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 23rd, 2007 &middot; No Comments  FITSnews has one heck of a good post on the school choice debate in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Silence Dogood</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1918</link>
		<dc:creator>Silence Dogood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 02:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1918</guid>
		<description>Scott, not everyone attends college and we don&#039;t currently deem it important enough as a society that eveyone does attend college (I don&#039;t know whether it is or  not), but to expand public education to make government cover the private school choices of individual persons is a big government solution that I find curious so many republicans embrace - I have no knowledge of your political affiliations - whether its done in a tax rebate, voucher or directly paid for to the school out of government coffers based on enrollement is a difference without distinction (except for very particular legal/constitutional issue for parochial schools) and expands government entitlement.  I don&#039;t know if the Pre-K or college examples are analougous.  Not everyone attends college and it is not mandated by law that they do - same with Pre-K.  If the only people who are going are self selected to go, personally or by their parents, I am sure they do work better than when everyone is mandated to go, therefore I don&#039;t think this elucidates a good counterexample of free markets over coming the education problems which S.C. currently faces.  Likely poverty is one of the biggest issues currently hurting public education in S.C., of all the 45-50 states which currently lead us in education and not the lack of vouchers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, not everyone attends college and we don&#8217;t currently deem it important enough as a society that eveyone does attend college (I don&#8217;t know whether it is or  not), but to expand public education to make government cover the private school choices of individual persons is a big government solution that I find curious so many republicans embrace &#8211; I have no knowledge of your political affiliations &#8211; whether its done in a tax rebate, voucher or directly paid for to the school out of government coffers based on enrollement is a difference without distinction (except for very particular legal/constitutional issue for parochial schools) and expands government entitlement.  I don&#8217;t know if the Pre-K or college examples are analougous.  Not everyone attends college and it is not mandated by law that they do &#8211; same with Pre-K.  If the only people who are going are self selected to go, personally or by their parents, I am sure they do work better than when everyone is mandated to go, therefore I don&#8217;t think this elucidates a good counterexample of free markets over coming the education problems which S.C. currently faces.  Likely poverty is one of the biggest issues currently hurting public education in S.C., of all the 45-50 states which currently lead us in education and not the lack of vouchers.</p>
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		<title>By: Syd</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1917</link>
		<dc:creator>Syd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 23:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1917</guid>
		<description>whatever, dude. it&#039;s your blog, and at the very least I applaud you for not deleting opinions (we&#039;re glad to give you hits in exchange for open discussion)...so go ahead and continue to cherry pick all the stats and studies you want that fit your opinion. but please please don&#039;t try to sell us on the bullshit line that vouchers are about equality. how about being a little more intellectually honest and admit that while you might, the majority of voucher proponents are not the slightest bit interested in assisting the poor in urban or rural schools. it&#039;s so clear they are solely interested in earmarking their tax dollars to support suburban christian, upper class white kids and the schools they attend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whatever, dude. it&#8217;s your blog, and at the very least I applaud you for not deleting opinions (we&#8217;re glad to give you hits in exchange for open discussion)&#8230;so go ahead and continue to cherry pick all the stats and studies you want that fit your opinion. but please please don&#8217;t try to sell us on the bullshit line that vouchers are about equality. how about being a little more intellectually honest and admit that while you might, the majority of voucher proponents are not the slightest bit interested in assisting the poor in urban or rural schools. it&#8217;s so clear they are solely interested in earmarking their tax dollars to support suburban christian, upper class white kids and the schools they attend.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1916</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1916</guid>
		<description>SILENCE DOGOOD - Why do the markets work marvelously with college education and preschool education - but would fail with K-12?

Education is vitally important to our state - but we have got to work for the betterment of each and every student - and not continually protect a system that fails to help children.

As Jim Rex said, &quot;Reform delayed is reform denied.&quot;  Private school choice, charter schools, alternative certification and reduction of the ridiculous paperwork required of our public school teachers can all go a long way in helping South Carolina students succeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SILENCE DOGOOD &#8211; Why do the markets work marvelously with college education and preschool education &#8211; but would fail with K-12?</p>
<p>Education is vitally important to our state &#8211; but we have got to work for the betterment of each and every student &#8211; and not continually protect a system that fails to help children.</p>
<p>As Jim Rex said, &#8220;Reform delayed is reform denied.&#8221;  Private school choice, charter schools, alternative certification and reduction of the ridiculous paperwork required of our public school teachers can all go a long way in helping South Carolina students succeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Silence Dogood</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1915</link>
		<dc:creator>Silence Dogood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1915</guid>
		<description>Josh, free markets don&#039;t always work and public education in this country is a direct result of an instance where it did not work.  One other thing that has made this nation great, along with free markets, is public education (here and in Britain as well).  Unlike other countries we have continually tried to educate the entire population and this has also helped make our nation strong economically as well as in other areas.

Twalerman please correct any grammatical mistakes, or spelling error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, free markets don&#8217;t always work and public education in this country is a direct result of an instance where it did not work.  One other thing that has made this nation great, along with free markets, is public education (here and in Britain as well).  Unlike other countries we have continually tried to educate the entire population and this has also helped make our nation strong economically as well as in other areas.</p>
<p>Twalerman please correct any grammatical mistakes, or spelling error.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Gross</title>
		<link>http://www.fitsnews.com/2007/06/22/to-compete-or-not-to-compete/comment-page-1/#comment-1914</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Gross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://69.89.31.161/~fitsnews/?p=1339#comment-1914</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Trawlerman (and sic Willie) on this one - Free markets are what made this nation great - and what can make our educational system great.

Is Competition the sole answer? No, of course not.  BUT, it is the reform that is the gatekeeper to all other reforms.  Parental involvement is the critical key - and school choice is the pinnacle of parental involvement.

At the end of the day, the questions are these - whose children? and whose money?  If the answer is the state, then by all means continue the state monopoly.  If the answers are parents and taxpayers, then let&#039;s unleash the power of the free market for the betterment of the future for the children of SC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Trawlerman (and sic Willie) on this one &#8211; Free markets are what made this nation great &#8211; and what can make our educational system great.</p>
<p>Is Competition the sole answer? No, of course not.  BUT, it is the reform that is the gatekeeper to all other reforms.  Parental involvement is the critical key &#8211; and school choice is the pinnacle of parental involvement.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, the questions are these &#8211; whose children? and whose money?  If the answer is the state, then by all means continue the state monopoly.  If the answers are parents and taxpayers, then let&#8217;s unleash the power of the free market for the betterment of the future for the children of SC.</p>
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